EPISODE TRANSCRIPT FOR EP036: Experiencing our sacredness
(AI / AUTO GENERATED)
Rex: [00:00:00] This podcast episode contains potentially sensitive topics around the issue of homelessness. Listener discretion is advised.
Craig: I think the life on the, on the streets does two things. You know, we create a face, a body, and our face expresses it, a protectiveness of survival, lines of fear and tension and tightness.
And what I have discovered, or what happens, I think, when we have time with each other just to sit, there's a softening of the face. One of the most beautiful moments with anyone is when... if there's a smile, when the face breaks.
Rex: I'm Rex Hohlbein, and welcome to You Know Me Now, a podcast conversation that strives to amplify the unheard voices in our community, as well as the [00:01:00] individuals and organizations that are in service to those in need.
In these episodes, I want to remind all of our listeners that the folks who share here do so with a great deal of courage and vulnerability. They share a common hope that by giving all of us this window into their world, they're opening an increased level of awareness, understanding, and perhaps most importantly, a connection with our own community In a world that seems to be traveling at ever greater speed, due in part to technology such as the influences of social media, it feels to many that we are growing apart, creating distance between us.
Loneliness is on the rise along with a number of mental health issues such as anxiety. This feeling of separation is of course harmful for all of us. For those living homeless, it is [00:02:00] devastating. Today, we're talking with Craig Rennebohm. Craig is a retired UCC pastor who spent 25 years of ministry on the downtown streets of Seattle as a mental health chaplain.
Based at Plymouth Church, he connected each day with others, seeking out the most isolated of our neighbors, believing in the healing power of companionship. Craig is the author of Souls in the Hands of a Tender God, a small but very influential book about the ministry of companionship, leading us from distress and despair into healing through a deeply mutual community.
He is also the co-author of a recently published book, Whole Community Pathways to Mental Health. I'm particularly grateful for this opportunity to talk with Craig in that his book, Souls in the Hands of a Tender God, greatly influenced the beginning chapters of Facing Homelessness and my own personal journey into companionship [00:03:00] with people living on our streets.
And with that, let's begin our conversation.
Craig: How about we start with,
Rex: um Telling us how you came to all of this. How did you, how did you begin, if we go back, back when you were a young man?
Craig: Yeah. Um, I think there are a couple of stories. The, the, the first one was, uh, when I was, uh, uh, a pastor at Pilgrim Congregational Church here in Seattle, and i- we had a chapel courtyard in an old clinker brick building.
And, uh, our custodian came up one morning, and he said, "There, there is a fellow sleeping in the chapel courtyard, and he's got some bags at each corner of the doorway, the doorway to the chapel." And he said, uh, "He didn't... I, I got here early this morning. He didn't want me to touch the bags." So I went down and, and the, the fellow [00:04:00] wasn't there, uh, but the bags were still there, and I just kinda looked.
They were open, and they looked like garbage mostly. And so I said to the custodian, "Why don't we just put these in the dumpster?" And so the next morning when I came, uh, the fellow actually was there, and he had some more bags at each corner. I tell this story in the book. Um, I often begin just by asking someone, "How do you like to be called?"
He said, "I, I'm Sterling Hayden, the actor," an old 19... well, 50s, 40s, 50s actor. We talked a little bit. He was pretty guarded. And, uh, I said, "Our custodian tries to keep the grounds clean and safe." And he said, "Oh, safe is important. Safe is important. Safe is important. And that's why I have the bags here because I put garbage and stuff in the bags, put them in each corner of the little patio here in front of the door, and then I [00:05:00] can sleep because evil won't go to evil."
But that's why they're there. I said, "Well, it, is it okay if during the day, because we have kids around and so on, to, if we put them in the dumpster and uh..." He said, "Yeah." The, the challenge was that he, he was bringing more and more toxic materials until, um, on Wednesday night he had brought boxes that had, uh, old cans of lye, and cleaning solvents, and, uh, motor oils, and he said, "The danger's, the evil is getting bigger, and I, I have to have stronger evil-"
Rex: You
Craig: know, match evil
Rex: with evil
Craig: yeah, evil with evil. And I thought, "Oh." So I s- I said, we talked about the safety thing, and I said to him, "You know, Sterling, um, there are some folks here who could talk with [00:06:00] you and maybe take you. If you like, you could go to the hospital where the rooms are all clean, and there's security at the hospital, and there'd be people around who could help you really stay safe, safer than you are out here."
And he said, "Okay." So I, I called the, the mental health professionals who are responsible for helping get someone into the hospital and, and, uh, they came on, on Friday morning, and I introduced them to, to Sterling. They saw what he had around him and, and I said, "We can go up in my office and, and talk about this," and Sterling was okay with that a- and seemed relieved that they were there And so they interviewed him and they discovered that he, uh, they assessed that he did have a, a, a serious and [00:07:00] persistent mental illness, which is one of their criteria for getting someone in the hospital.
And, uh, and then they said, uh, "Do, do you wanna go to the hospital?" And he said, "Yes, the, the pastors described it as a safe place and I wanna go there." And the, the mental health professionals from the county said, "Well, that's a problem. We can only take people to the hospital if they i- involuntarily, if they don't wanna go, so we, we can't help you."
I had no idea that this policy existed. I said, "What's going on there?" "Yeah, we can put people in the hospital if they are i- in imminent danger, mentally ill, and, and won't go. Then we can force them to the hospital. But we have no, uh, no powers-" No- "... no nothing we can do if somebody-" He wasn't
Rex: checking the right boxes.
Craig: Yeah. [00:08:00] And as he listened for a minute, he jumped up, dashed out of the, of my office, down the stairs. I was still trying, "Well, how, what do I do? How do I get him to the hospital?" And they were saying, "Well, if you wanna take him, you can do that, and you go through the emergency room." And I dashed down the stairs to find Sterling, and he was gone.
I, I couldn't find him.
Rex: Hmm.
Craig: The next Monday, I was reading the Seattle Times, and on a back page there was a little filler paragraph. A man had been found dead under the viaduct, the viaduct downtown, uh, frozen basically. I, and i- it was Sterling
And that, that kind of worked in me. I just, as an ordinary person, I didn't have very much understanding or knowledge about mental illness, about how to get people help if they had it. [00:09:00] Um, the only thing I'd gotten in seminary was that in pastoral care and counseling was if somebody has a serious mental illness, refer them to a psychiatrist
Rex: How old were you?
Craig: I would've been 31, 32 at that time.
Rex: And did that set you off in a new direction?
Craig: It sensitized me. And so at the church, we began to welcome people who were struggling with all kinds of issues and all it was. So that became that, um, just being available to people, opening the doors, meals. Uh, we, uh, had an old, uh, locker room for boys basketball down in the basement that became a s- a hygiene center and a resource center.
Um, but as I came to the end of my time there, a decade or so later, I, I thought, well, I was drawn to doing peace work-
Rex: Mm ...
Craig: and non-violence. And so [00:10:00] I made a plan with our, my family to go down to Berkeley and spend a, uh, a year there retooling and, uh, doing coursework and field work to equip for peace ministry.
Uh, and part of that meant I spent a, uh, the summer before that at a county hospital in a chaplaincy program, and I was assigned to a locked psychiatric ward One day we got a call from the emergency room about 4:00, and a patient who'd been with us and discharged that morning, uh, was asking to see the chaplain.
So I said, "Yeah, I'll come over." And, uh, I sat down with the person and, and they said, "Uh, they won't let me back in the hospital. I don't have anywhere to go. There's nowhere for me to go. I don't know where to get food. I don't have any place to sleep. They just let me out of the hospital this morning, gave me some [00:11:00] papers."
And, and so I, I said to the social worker, "What's, what is the problem?" I mean, he's pretty upset. And well, the protocol is that we, yeah, and they have to wait 24 hours or something. Uh, it, it was... But no, he can't, uh, that person can't come back into the hospital. And so he said, "Well, what am I gonna do?" I said, "Well, the best I, I...
You know, I'm not real familiar with the area here, but I would encourage you, go to the nearest fire station and stay near there. Uh, if you get, uh, uh, uh, anxious or some of the mental health stuff comes back, just knock on their door and say, 'I, I'm, I need help.'" I need help. And that's when I realized that between Sterling and this person, uh, we have, we have got to begin with the person and help the person connect with others.
But we have to [00:12:00] connect with them first- Mm ... and really listen, and then be part of the advocacy going forward- Yeah ... part of the healing journey going forward.
Rex: Yeah.
Craig: And that's, that, that's when I stopped thinking about peace work. If we can't make peace on our own streets, what are we doing?
Rex: Gosh, there's a famous philosopher that said something like that.
You, if you don't have peace in your own house or your, in your own neighborhood, you can't expect it in the world, right? It's- Like, they are connected.
Craig: Absolutely. And, and if, if we are, uh, not attentive to one another in our families, in our, in the block and neighborhood where we live, in our The places where we meet and see each other every day, if, if we're not caring there, and indeed, if we're hostile or, you know, [00:13:00] hurtful to one another-
Rex: Yeah, or indifferent
Craig: yeah, i- g- if we just are going about our own business, uh, we need to practice caring for one another in the most basic moments of our lives.
Rex: Yeah. Yeah.
Craig: And I realized how little of that was being nurtured and fostered.
Rex: Yeah. I mean, I think when I listen to you talk, right, and you come out of seminary, and you're, and you're going about your work, it, it must have felt like you had found a calling.
Craig: I did. I mean, I, I... My seminary training helped me to focus on local congregations of any kind as, as places where, uh, particularly the pastor's role was to do repair work when things, somebody had been damaged, or hurt, or wounded, or... And, uh, to try and create a space where good practices in relationships were happening, and that the, the celebrations in education, the worship were [00:14:00] reinforced that.
I think what happened when I was doing the retooling in, I was about in my early 40s then, I realized that we had to be a lot more intentional and do a lot more basic training, so to speak, or equipping of people of practicing loving kindness and, and care, humility, uh- Yeah. Like- To do-
Rex: Like any skill.
Craig: Exactly. And so what I came back to Seattle with was a commitment to, uh, not only practice that at the point of greatest need in our community on the streets, but also not to do that alone as a model, but to say, "I will, I will sit with others in the community who are interested in learning and deepening our capacity for, for care and compassion."
Rex: Yeah. And what year was that when you came back to Seattle?
Craig: That would have been, uh, '87. '
Rex: 87. And then is that when you started the street chaplaincy?
Craig: I started the tr- street chaplaincy where I was practicing the, [00:15:00] the, the companionship every day myself on the streets and began to develop a deeper understanding of how we approach one a-
Rex: Mm
Craig: one another, h- what's hospitality. Very simple, basic stuff. How do we be a neighbor? How do we relate together on a journey side by side rather than me-
Rex: Yeah ...
Craig: in front of you confronting or behind you pushing. Uh, it was just very basic practices. But for my own Learning that was important, and I was being taught by the people I was working with on the street.
And then the second commitment was to invite others to join me in this learning process- Yeah ... of being a companion.
Rex: You know, I, I'm glad to hear you talk about it as a learning process because- Yeah ... you know, I, I, I get a lot of people that say to me, "Well, I, I just can't. I can't be involved. It's just too overwhelming," right?
Like, y- I just, it's just too much need, and I don't know if I have the [00:16:00] capabilities and blah, blah, blah. And I always tell them, you know, you, you don't learn to swim by jumping in the deep end. That's right. You start in the kiddie pool and splash around. Yeah. And, and it's the same for homelessness services, right?
Start in the kiddie pool of homelessness. And, and did you... So in your process of learning and bringing others into that, um, can you describe that a little bit? Yeah. Like, what is that slow start?
Craig: Yeah. Um, we developed a context for companioning. Before practicing companionship, there's a, a phase that I, I called approach, and- Approach
approach. Uh, and began to unpack how, how we start in a relationship. One of the things I think we learned was that our senses pick up someone's situation before our minds or even our emotions kick in. Uh, I see something. I smell [00:17:00] something. I, I can taste in my mouth somebody's hunger, thirst. Uh, my stomach, I'm triggered in a good way.
Rex: But- You're picking up information.
Craig: Yeah. And then that evokes some feeling The first one is sympathy. I begin to feel in myself, uh, some of the feelings that that person is feeling but I don't even necessarily associate it with them. I just, "Oh, I'm hurting," or, "This is painful."
Rex: It feels like the beginnings of empathy, right?
Like, like an empath would- Yeah ... be able to pick up the feelings in a room or from a person.
Craig: Right. I th- but we pushed it back even a step further to say I, I think all of us have, are, are innately, inherently sympathetic. Mm. We are, we are created in these bodies to be touched literally-
Rex: Mm ...
Craig: by another. We have in the brain, they call them [00:18:00] mirror neurons.
We actually have a whole process that goes on in the body so that from sensations into feelings, we begin, um, there's an actual brain process in which we begin to get a picture in our own minds of the inner life of another. That happens without any ...
Rex: That's beautiful.
Craig: Yeah. That's sympathy. And remarkable,
Rex: really.
Craig: That's sympathy.
Rex: Yeah.
Craig: When we begin to make the connection that, "Oh, what I'm experiencing is maybe close to what another is experiencing," that's empathy. That's the consciousness. What makes it shift from sympathy to empathy is that I am beginning to be aware that what you are experiencing-
Rex: Mm ...
Craig: I'm experiencing.
Rex: I love that you, this, you called it approach. Is that what you said?
Craig: That's- this is what's going on in the approach phase.
Rex: Yeah. I, I love that [00:19:00] you are bringing it first to the person that's experiencing, uh, or viewing, not experiencing, but viewing homelessness, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, and to check in with yourself and be aware of, because how you show up has a lot to do with the success- Right
of that interaction.
Craig: Well, there's a third feeling state. Sympathy, we just are kind of aware that there's some feeling and emotion and mood developing. Uh, empathy, oh yeah, that stuff is a little bit something like what's going on with the other. It's in them as well as in me. The third emotion of approach is compassion.
I begin to feel with that person. Uh, we're in this together. The conditions that you're experiencing, Rex, in this room, you're experiencing and I'm experiencing a context together.
Rex: Mm-hmm.
Craig: So-
Rex: Yeah. We're in the same water ...
Craig: we are. And, and I think that that's all that's really involved [00:20:00] in approach. I- that's basic part of approach, is to move from these unsettled or disturbing or just vague feelings of sympathy to a sense of, oh, what I am feeling and you're feeling may be similar, or, uh, in us both, to compassion, saying, "Yeah, and we're living in the same world together."
And once we arrive at that sense of compassion, we have a, a choice to make. What do I, what do I wanna do? How do I wanna act? And there's no right answer to that, right? There- I, I may feel overwhelmed and say, "I'm, I, I, I'm not able to do this. I have to excuse myself," or, "I wish you well, but I need to move on."
That's-
Rex: Yeah. And to know that's legitimate.
Craig: Absolutely. Because all of us have our own woundedness, limits, uh, you know, uh, and, and so we need to st- uh, out of that [00:21:00] woundedness, limitedness, we, we need to set boundaries. None of us is able to just throw our arms open and do everything that anybody else ever kn- would need.
No, that's crazy. The second part of the approach phase is how we do, how do we introduce ourselves so that we can begin to make those first-step decisions with, uh, with each other somewhat mutually. Mm-hmm. So I just ask, you know, "How do you, how do you like to be called?"
Rex: Yeah. And, and I, I, I read this in your book, but why is it important that those first steps are, are mutual?
Craig: Uh, it's a recognition of reality It, it's not, I don't create mutuality a- as a basic field of relationship. Mm. That is the fundamental nature of our-
Rex: Two humans.
Craig: Yeah. We are two human beings. We are in a relationship. That's, uh, to, to, [00:22:00] to honor mutuality is say, you know, uh, you and I are two poles of a, of a common reality.
That, that's hard-
Rex: It's undeniable.
Craig: No.
Rex: Yeah.
Craig: Uh, occasionally people will say, uh, they wanna fire me. I say, "Well, you can maybe fire somebody you have a contract with or an agreement, but, but you as human be- you can't fire one human being from another human being." I mean, we, we live in this world with each other.
Rex: Yeah, yeah, you're stuck with me.
Craig: Yeah. And I will be very tender. B- I, I, I may observe and move into compassion without ever saying a word or even making myself known to a person because I'm sensing as I, as I experience this compassion for them, that my just moving closer would be an intrusion.
Rex: Mm.
Craig: So I, I will, I will say, "Well, maybe I'll just look for this person tomorrow."
Rex: Mm.
Craig: Or, "Maybe I'll just sit on the [00:23:00] bench here quietly and see what happens." But it, I don't have to introduce myself.
Rex: Yeah.
Craig: All I need to do out of the sympathy, empathy, and compassion is recognize that we are in this together.
Rex: Yeah. And being aware of your own, your own state, but also theirs.
Craig: Yes.
Rex: Like-
Craig: Yes
Rex: you know, you come in and, "Hey, how's it going?" And they're not in that space.
Craig: Absolutely.
Rex: That can be very off-putting, right?
Craig: Yeah.
Rex: Yeah. Um, I read something a long time ago that one of the ways to relate to a, you know, teenager, let's say-
Craig: Mm-hmm ...
Rex: is, is to parrot. To, to be aware of their space and give it back so that there is this connection, and I wonder if that's very similar to what you're talking about.
Craig: Is- Yeah. Um, and we often hear that in terms of a verbal affirmation. Mm. I [00:24:00] hear you- Mm ... saying or- Mm ... but this is-
Rex: But also biorhythm.
Craig: Yeah. This, y- you can, we can mirror each other, we can reflect each other simply by honoring, uh, our sense of who this other person is. May not be 100% right for sure, but, and, and, and realizing they're also making- Some meaning of this relationship too.
It's not a one-way street. Right. This is a back and forth and the tenderness really is involving an honoring that we're both working at this, or working-
Rex: You're
Craig: co- ... we're both in, in this process together. Yeah, you're
Rex: co-creators.
Craig: Yes, yes.
Rex: Yeah.
Craig: This is a relationship in which it's, it's, each of us have-
Rex: Mm ...
Craig: uh, involvement.
That involvement in the process and for me to honor that, that's mutuality. And that mutuality at the very beginning means that I'm pretty careful with what I say or do- Yeah ... or, because I wanna create as much [00:25:00] space as possible, uh, for you to express who you are.
Rex: Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about one of the inherent, um, stumbling points in that mutuality?
And that is that when someone walks up and they, they, maybe they just got out of their $60,000 Mercedes and they're a important person at work, and they come up to be in service to someone outside with nothing to their name, that there, that there is this inherent imbalance of mutuality.
Craig: Yep. Yep.
Interestingly, w- this, this is why we begin with talking about approach because it begins to introduce this notion that there may be some imbalances and barriers to the mutuality.
Rex: Yeah.
Craig: So-
Rex: Layers constructed.
Craig: Yeah. Yeah, my constructed reality bumps against the construction of reality that the other is [00:26:00] experiencing.
But I, I... Many of us, uh, it takes time is what I've learned this over many, many years. What is the construction that I bring with me? And, and how might that collide or become imposed on the other unconsciously? I just assume stuff. So that's why this becomes a very much slower process than most processes we engage in.
Uh, so if I make a deci- one deci- a decision I make is, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna offer to introduce myself at some point. That's the first step. But when I'm introducing myself, it's... I introduce myself out of the depths of my soul to the depths of your soul.
Rex: Mm. But- Which is different than usually what happens, right?
"Hi, my name's Rex," and it's almost, uh, just a salutat- It's almost just like some- Yeah ... required, uh, "How are you?" And you know? [00:27:00] Like- That's a mis-
Craig: Yeah, and that's the assump- Very different
Rex: from what you just said.
Craig: That's the assumption of the co- That's our constructed reality, that, uh, we greet each other with a handshake or the, "I'm Craig.
You're..." Yeah. And, um, but that isn't necessarily the way two souls will begin to meet and engage. Mm. And when I say that to people, I mean, how many of us have really thought about what it means for me to open my soul, uh, the deepest and most sacred part of who I am, to the most sacred- Yeah ... and deepest part of the other?
Rex: Yeah. You're gonna think I'm just a total flake, but that makes me tear up. That's really beautiful, Craig.
Craig: Yeah. That's-
Rex: That's really beautiful.
Craig: I mean, uh, and that's, that's... When I talk about the approach phase and how I'm gonna introduce myself- Mm ... in a way that honors our mutuality, it's... This is an occasion of, of soulfulness meeting soulfulness.[00:28:00]
And that's a very spiritual, very-
Rex: Yeah ...
Craig: uh, a, a matter of faithfulness. I, I don't mean that in the, what terms of what you believe or don't believe or- Mm ... ideas. It's a matter of how do we experience our sacredness and the sacredness of another in a moment of holiness with each other?
Rex: Yeah. It feels like love.
Craig: It is. That's the word that that's the word that's at the heart of all we do.
Rex: That trips me into the, to the topic, uh, that we chatted just before we turned the recorder on- Mm ... and that is about loving yourself, right? Like, what condition are we in to love our neighbor? And can you talk a little bit about that?
Sure. How important that is to ...
Craig: Yeah. You, you, you asked about, uh, you know, w- where my passion or leadings came to do this work, and, uh, I, I think that all of us are [00:29:00] created for this kind of loving kindness with each other, that that's our, that's our calling that we're all created for. I'm 81, and it's, it's only in the last literally six months or so that I have fully understood something that happened to my soul early on, and that was somewhere in early childhood, uh, I experienced, um, some horrific sexual abuse Before I was five.
And I think myself, my deepest self, my soul, I, I've come to use a kind of a ... Clasp my hands tightly together like I'm just trying to protect the smallest bit of who I am in my two palms pressed together. And I have carried [00:30:00] that experience, my tenderness as a soul, uh, tightly, tightly protected, and created around that as best I could, a sense of self and m- m- movement in the world.
And I think realizing unconsciously, my body knew what it's like to be horrifically abused and ignored, decimated. And so, uh, that's helped me to understand the tenderness of ... And, and the folks on the street are literally the castouts. Yeah. The displaced brothers and sisters, fellow human beings of our communities.
I, I think it's true, all of us clasp our souls close. Mm.
Rex: Yeah.
Craig: But I think any of us who, who have experienced, have experiences of deep woundedness, whether that's trauma and abuse, whether that's the, the, uh, late [00:31:00] stages of, uh, drugs and alcohol, whether that's, uh, a severe persistent mental illness, all of those.
Whether it's just trying to live as a, as a tender human being in a very fast-moving, high, uh, fast-paced, uh, society. Um- Yeah,
Rex: which can be so brutal.
Craig: It can be. It can be. And, and w- if, if we see that for all of us at some point, we clasp our s- our sacredness, our, our most deep selves, hold them close and protectively.
That's our common condition.
Rex: Mm-hmm.
Craig: If we have loving caring families, the soul lives- Can live in the grip of- Yeah, yeah. The grip ... And, and, and many of us have enough g- good enough lives that we, we are to some degree soulful. But, but the ... What I learned in the work on the street and in teaching companionship is that it's a movement toward a faithful [00:32:00] selfhood, toward
And now I use the ... It's, it's really a movement together towards soulfulness
Rex: That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing-
Craig: Yeah ...
Rex: that. Um, I appreciate that. And gives, um, gives deeper meaning to the work that you're doing.
Craig: Yeah.
Rex: Um, you know, one of the insights that I've had recently, um, and I didn't... This wasn't mine, it was something I read, but it, it resonated with regards to homelessness.
Uh, and that is that, you know, as we grow up, either with trauma or, or probably not even with trauma- Mm-hmm ... is that we, we create this face, right? That we go out into the world with. And so when we, when we meet somebody else and we get into conversation, we think we're talking to each other, to who we are, but, but so often it's the face talking to the face.
And so when you begin to talk about really meaningful, beautiful things, it often can, it can feel a little empty or hollow, in my opinion. [00:33:00] Because you're really, you're really still talking face-to-face. Face-to-face. And one of the things that I have, that I can, I can say maybe changed my life, was the conversations with people living outside, is that I felt that I w- that the face had been deconstructed, and that that person was in a more vulnerable place, and therefore maybe more exposed, and that now I was talking to them.
Craig: Yeah,
Rex: yeah. Can you... Do, do you have a similar experience? No,
Craig: I, I, I resonate with that. I think the life on the, on the streets, and life on the edge, life on the margins, it does two things. Uh, you know, we create a face. Uh, our body and our face expresses it, a protectiveness of survival. Uh, often lines of fear and tension and tightness.
And what I have discovered, or what [00:34:00] happens, I think, when we have time with each other just to sit, there's a softening Uh, of the face. Mm-hmm. And one of the most beautiful moments with anyone is when... If there's a smile.
Rex: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Craig: When the face breaks.
Rex: When who you are comes
Craig: through. Yeah, yeah. I hold carefully, look carefully at how the face, how the body, but in particular how the face is being held, 'cause I know that we've all created masks.
This
Rex: fa-
Craig: Yeah ... this facade. Yeah. Here's where the, the, these basic practices of companionship begin to flow and make some sense. The, the first practice of companionship after approach and introducing ourselves was, is simply a, a hospitality to create safe space together. No more, no less. It's just, you know, sitting together as far away as, as, or near as possible.
And, [00:35:00] uh, maybe enjoying a cup of coffee or, you know, some exchange around something like that. The next practice is neighboring, and this is where we get at the issue of one up, one down, of inequality. In neighboring, I'm, I'm trying to set aside any of those things that in our culture set us apart from one another.
So I leave my Rolls-Royce at home.
Rex: Which one?
Craig: Yes. I take the bus and I, I walk and that, uh, uh, uh, the, um ... And I leave my power, um, aside, and I, I try and be, uh, just on the common ground of you're a human being, I'm a human being. I think the third practice is, is absolutely crucial. It goes to this issue of [00:36:00] the facades that we present to each other.
But I'm, I'm moving my chair right now because the basic stance of companioning each other is side by side.
Rex: Mm-hmm.
Craig: So I can glance over and check in with a person, but I'm not staring at them face to face. Mm-hmm. Because I... We know we've created these images of ourselves. But the stance of side by side, we're looking out at the world together.
Uh, and so, and I'm, I'm gonna see that a little bit differently. Uh, my eye might be caught by a ladybug on a plant or, and you may be watching the trickle of a raindrop. And that reinforces the notion of fundamental common ground. That what I see is what I see. It's not more important than what you see or any less.
Um, but it also, we begin to experience each other [00:37:00] relating to our context, to the reality. And so I begin to see more deeply in you as I hear you report on what you're experiencing, and as I share what I'm experiencing. And so we look at each other from time to time, but we look at each other in a context.
So you see my face now as it's part of a larger environment. I see your face as part of your larger environment. And I, we realize at some level that, yeah, we're both struggling, we're both working, we're both in this process of making ourselves
Rex: Yeah ...
Craig: in the context. And
Rex: figuring it out.
Craig: Yeah. And that's, that's, that side by side begins to really help that-
Rex: Yeah
Craig: build that common ground.
Rex: I can't remember if I read this in your book. It's been 10 plus years since I read Souls in the Hands of a Tender God. Yeah. But one of the things that I either took from it or I, um, pieced [00:38:00] together is that one of the reasons it's so important to find that kind of mutual, uh, human to human as opposed to one above the other-
Craig: Mm-hmm
Rex: is that if, let's say, you reach out to someone who is struggling And, and you do have, uh, let's say more worldly belongings, uh, than this person. If that relationship's built on that, then as this person rises up, which is something that you want to see and they wanna see, it has a potential for destabilizing the relationship because it wasn't built as an equal.
It was built with a hierarchy so that possibly an issue, it comes to bear when suddenly this person is moving up to an equal position- Right ... and you maybe are not comfortable with that because it's not the basis. Is that, do you see that?
Craig: Yeah. No, I really do, and I, and I think that, um-
Rex: Which is, which I'll say is, which is why I think what [00:39:00] you are saying is so important, to start there as equals.
Craig: Yeah. So you don't- We start as equals, and we m- we move forward as equals rather than it's not a matter of me being up here and you as a person who's on the street getting brought up to my level. Uh, but I think that's a lot of how, um, addressing homelessness is- The- ... understood.
Rex: Exactly.
Craig: We, we, we, uh, we've, we have to get you off the street and into our world.
Uh, it's not about you're in a world, I'm in a world, and by the way, that's pretty much the same world, and we have to figure out together how we are gonna live together in this world. That's very threatening to folks because it isn't about me getting you deservingly up to where I am. Yeah. It's about how the world's become more difficult for me to live in because I, [00:40:00] I'm, I'm so aware, much more aware of how inequitable and unjust and cruel and heartless that world is, and I, it's not about helping a person adapt to the world that I have to live in.
Rex: Well, it's also metrics that aren't actually even important.
Craig: No.
Rex: Right?
Craig: It's not what, that's not what makes us human. Part of the way I get at that is the fourth practice of companioning is to listen, and so what I'm listening for is not your problems. I'm not listening to make a diagnosis about what's keeping you down.
Rex: So I can fix it.
Craig: Yeah, so I can figure out how to get, help you get up the ladder. I'm listening for your gifts, your strengths- I- ... your capacities.
Rex: That's beautiful.
Craig: Because what I want to, I, I want to be seen as someone who has skills and gifts and capacities, and get support for the inherently who I am.
Rex: Yeah.
Craig: [00:41:00] Not because I did well on a test, and not because I know the right people, and not because I figured out how to accumulate more than anybody else. That's-
Rex: Yeah ...
Craig: that's not gonna help my soul at all.
Rex: No. And I love that you are looking for their gifts and their beauty because in that process, you are seeing them, and that's what we all wanna be, right?
Yeah. Is seen. Yeah,
Craig: yeah.
Rex: And, and feel like we, uh, we fit.
Craig: If you go back to the heart of that trauma, the heart of that trauma was that, uh, somebody with much more power and self-entitlement or whatever did not see me as a person, but simply as a, a, a, as an object, uh, that they could own and possess.
Rex: Yeah.
Craig: I think that's why we're having such trouble with acknowledging the huge role and legacy of slavery, of child slavery in this country, because, uh, that...
it's so wrong.
Rex: Yeah.
Craig: Abuse, you, I mean, [00:42:00] the, the heart of the abuse is that I have power over you. Yeah. I own you, and that-
Rex: And you're an object. Yeah. You're ch- you're chattel.
Craig: You're, you're the opposite of a soul.
Rex: Yeah. Yeah.
Craig: So-
Rex: Yes ...
Craig: that... When I'm listening, I wanna hear what's, what is emerging of your soulfulness.
I don't have any solutions for a person. I really don't. You- And, and people will say things like, "I want a job." I say, "Okay, let's, let's work on that. What, what kind of job? What, what is your interest in working? What..." Yeah. And I mean, to start with a job when somebody's still, uh, uh, struggling with fentanyl or, you know.
But it honors that this is a soul with a, a, a calling, a vocation. And what happens then is that, okay, well, here's sort of in this world how you get a job at this point. Um.
Rex: Here's the path.
Craig: Yeah. But if that doesn't work for you, [00:43:00] maybe we need to fall back on the path and see what other paths we need to pursue that may eventually get to the expression of who you are really.
Rex: Yeah.
Craig: That, so I have a lot of failures with people.
Rex: Hm.
Craig: Because I journey with them to the places where they get, come up against barriers and are told, "No, you can't come in here," or, "No, you have to do this, that, and the other thing." And, and so, uh, but I'm there with you.
Rex: I think when you are helping them with those tasks, um, it is, it's the manner in which you're doing it that's actually giving them the most, I would guess.
Yeah. Is that they feel loved and cared for by you.
Craig: Yeah. It's-
Rex: And that, and that, that goes a long ways to what ultimately they're going to- Yeah ... succeed with, right? And I think that's an important distinction because too often I think we try to fix something, and we forget to see that person's beauty or that, or their gifts, [00:44:00] as you said.
Craig: Yeah. A very concrete example of that, I was with a guy on the street who, um, had some real physical issues medically, a- along with struggling with a substance use disorder and self-medicating for mental illness symptoms. Um, and he finally, he said, "I, I gotta get some help. I just, my legs are too painful. I can't even walk anymore."
So we, we went to a clinic. And even there, we went to a desk where there was a receptionist, and all the receptionist needed to do was to get a name, uh, and say to the person, "I'll let the staff know you're here." He was a mumbler. It was hard to hear him. And so the, she said, "I just, if, if, I just need to know your name."
And, and he, he didn't hear her. He heard her, but he just [00:45:00] mumbled. And she said, "I, I, could you repeat that or spell that?" And he had a name like Smith. It wasn't S- but, but like five letters.
Rex: One syllable.
Craig: And he said, "S-M-I-T-H. I'm out of here."
Rex: Oh.
Craig: I can't even spell Smith. I mean
Rex: Yeah.
Craig: He was so anxious about this appointment.
Yeah. I mean, a- and- It was
Rex: closing doors before he got there.
Craig: Yeah. And, and that became more than he could tolerate.
Rex: Yeah.
Craig: And so one thing, uh, I know my response could've been, "Oh, uh, this guy's just impossible to work with."
Rex: Yeah. "
Craig: We're not even ... We can't even get to the front desk." But instead, he walked out. I went aft- out after him and, and w- Old Father sat down on a bench, and I said...
Just listened to him rant and rave for a while, and I said, "That didn't go well, did it?" "No, it didn't." [00:46:00] I said, "Yeah, that's... You know, we gotta figure out something different. I don't know what that is, but that did not go well." And-
Rex: And I'm still here.
Craig: Yeah, and I'm here. We're... And that's the fifth practice of the companioning accompaniment.
And accompaniment is different from solving a, fixing something. It's I, I will go with you into this, into this world that we have to live in. So, and our, our souls are created for that complexity, but it takes a lot of nourishment and nurture to become a soul able to navigate
Rex: Yeah
Craig: The incredible complexity of this world
Rex: And navigate it...
I mean, it's complex to navigate it when you slept beautifully, and your head was on a soft pillow, and your partner woke up and smiled at you.
Craig: Yeah
Rex: It's another thing [00:47:00] if you're in a tent, and you're wet, and the freeway noise is so loud you can't think.
Craig: Right. And I think it's also difficult even for the most well-off among us because we are able to navigate, we think, because we have all these tools and privileges and resources.
And, and I think the truth is-
Rex: Mm-hmm ...
Craig: that, that reality is always, uh, uh, it's, for all of us, is a series of processes that we have to make our way into, and with, and out of. And so in essence, it's, it, that we are all-
Rex: Dealing with it ...
Craig: yeah. We're all on this earth. We're earthly beings. Uh, we, we're, do that right.
We're spiritual beings on an earthly journey. We are souls navigating this portion of the universe.
Rex: This little, tiny [00:48:00] speck of it. Yeah.
Craig: And part of the problem is that we think, we think particular maps are the answer. Mm-hmm. When learning how to make maps and learning what the maps are about, but not the maps themselves-
Rex: Mm-hmm
Craig: is, uh, our soul life is, is much more than, uh... It, it is joining with one another and- Yeah ... finding our way.
Rex: Well, I, I would totally agree that- Your status or your wealth accumulation or whatever else it is that you've hung your hat on has nothing to do with kind of the restfulness of your soul. And I th- I, I really feel at any one of those, those, um, levels that you're at in our society, I think it really comes down to do you feel loved?
Craig: Yeah.
Rex: You know? And that's such a big gift to give those who are feeling-
Craig: That's why the, the, the, the basic truth is about loving one another, [00:49:00] that it's in that process, in that experience with each other that we, we find our way together.
Rex: Yeah.
Craig: And the more I enter into that, the less anxious I find myself, because I think the basic processes of life and the universe are human-friendly.
And we've, we distort them enormously. Mm. I mean, what we're doing in, uh, Gaza and Iran, you know, and in, in, in our own country is, uh-
Rex: Doesn't have to be that way.
Craig: No. It's really antithetical to the, this, what is most basic to us as persons.
Rex: Can you talk a little bit about the actual practicality of companionship for someone that's listening to this?
Someone that's moved by what you're sharing and says, "I wanna get involved, and I wanna be a companion." What does that, what does that look like?
Craig: Well, I think that, um, [00:50:00] there is now, uh, b- in Seattle, uh, a group that's really stewarding companionship is, uh, uh, Our Sacred Streets, and that's a website you can go to and get connected into that network of people that are companioning.
And then there's a national, um, uh, organization, Pathways to Promise, that is taking the, uh, practices of companionship and developing, um, introductions to companionship and support for companions all over the country. Mm. And that's Pathways, numeral 2, um, uh, to Promise. Okay. Pathways topromise.org.
Rex: Number two.
Craig: Yeah. And those are two very practical ways to get started. Just be- Yeah ... in touch with people at either of those, uh, organizations. They can be helpful.
Rex: Yeah, and I'm gonna say something that I know you agree with, but really, if we're, if we're serious about ending [00:51:00] homelessness, it's built on relationships.
Craig: Exactly, and the more of us that are in those relationships with each other and empowering one another to give voice, to give visual- Yeah ... uh, support to people, that, we're gonna, we're gonna end this from the ground up, not from the top down.
Rex: Yeah, I agree 100%. I wanna, I wanna finish up by giving you a few moments to, to just share about your two books, and, you know.
Okay. The first one I, I, in the, in the social services world- Has informed so many people Thank you. Yeah Can you talk about that book, uh, Souls- Yes ... in the Hands of a Tender God? And then I'm so excited to read your book that's just come out.
Craig: Yes. Thank you. Um- Well, Souls in the Tender God was really written out of the, the, the, the stories and the experience of being on the street for, um, 20-plus years.
And it, it [00:52:00] moves in three parts. The, the, the first part is really a focus on the practices of companionship and, and stories about relationship, and learnings from the people, uh, that permitted me to join in the healing process with them. The second part of the book is really about the importance of community for companionship, that we can't just companion alone or heal alone.
We, we need to be part of loving communities where there are circles of relationship that are rooted in love and care. And one in particular illustrations of that is a, is a small house we developed where companions lived in community with folks coming from the street and, and built community together.
Not just single relationships, but a community of, of eight folks. Mm-hmm. Um, and then the, the third part of the book is [00:53:00] really looking at how the practices of companionship and this way of relationship is really countercultural, is, is, uh, a calling back to the most basic ways of being human In a world that has been profoundly dehumanized.
And then the second book, um, uh, Whole Community: Pathways to Mental Health, and the subtitle is Ending the, uh, Epidemic of Distress and Despair, is, is really in some ways, um, an echo of Souls in that it, it, it moves through, um, three parts. The first really talks about who we are as persons and how vulnerable we all are to de- distress and despair.
The second part talks about how there are... We see seven circles of care and healing, seven pathways that in any healthy community [00:54:00] will be contributing to the wellbeing o- of all of us proactively. Uh, and then the third part of the book really says we, we can't wait until people are at the peak of their distress and spiraling into despair and hope to make a difference at that point.
We really do need to have a proactive, uh, community-wide approach to saying we- we're gonna be a loving, caring community in a variety of ways that will make for healthy human beings. Some of us still will be lost, but that's why the seventh pathway is outreach and engagement.
Rex: Yeah. So- That's beautiful.
Craig: Yeah.
Rex: When... Is that out now? Can people-
Craig: Yeah. It, it- Can people
Rex: can buy that and-
Craig: It's out now. Uh, it's an academic book. I call it a, a, a love story packaged as an academic book. But... And it's very... It, it's readable, and anybody can pick it up. Um, we didn't realize when we [00:55:00] went with the publisher, they're an academic publisher.
Their audience is university libraries and colleges, and so they, they sell the book to university libraries in a digital package of some kind. I don't even know how that works. But they sell the b- hardbound book at $139, which I'm embarrassed about. And we don't get much of that. And they have a, for $109 you can get an e-book.
Uh, and they're gonna put out a paperback in January, so-
Rex: Which
Craig: will be a little less ... I'm hoping, I'm hoping that will be affordable. But I'm encouraging people to go to their local library and ask their librarian to get a copy or to get, uh- Yeah ... the e-book and have it available in any community.
Rex: I'm so excited to read it.
Good. I have a last question for you. What brings you your most joy?
Craig: Oh
Rex: I don't, you know, and I don't, I've never asked somebody that in these interviews. Yeah But there's, you're just profoundly, beautifully joyful, [00:56:00] and I just wanna know where, what-
Craig: Oh, I can, I can tell you right off the bat. Okay I mean, day by day, um, Barb brings me my greatest joy.
Um- Mm ... any given day, I mean, my granddaughter is at our house, one of my granddaughters is at our house today. My grandson we see on Thursdays, and my other granddaughter often comes on Sunday afternoons, uh, regularly, those are. But I can be moved to joyful laughter, uh, by, m- m- by my chil- the children and grandchildren, and, uh, and by my friends and family, and that's-
Rex: Yeah
Craig: and by people I meet on the bus, or- ... you know, I just, there's a- Yeah ... there's a joy. You're
Rex: a people lover.
Craig: Yeah. And I'm loved.
Rex: Yeah.
Craig: So
Rex: I'm happy for you.
Craig: Yeah.
Rex: And this has been so wonderful for me to be able to sit with you.
Craig: Thank you. Well, thank you.
Rex: Yeah. [00:57:00] We wanna give a heartfelt thank you to Craig for so beautifully sharing his compassionate life view, and articulating a path forward for all of us in creating a healthy community.
You Know Me Now is a project under the nonprofit Facing Homelessness. It is produced, written, and edited by Tomas Bernatsky and me, Rex Hohlbein. Please join the 60,000 combined followers on our very active Facing Homelessness Facebook and Instagram pages, where you can join in on the conversation. Thank you for listening to this episode of You Know Me Now.