rex: [00:00:00] This podcast contains potentially sensitive topics. Listener discretion is advised.

nathan: I remember this, uh, guy just recently getting on the 14. Everything was happening quickly, and I looked at him with a face that had no malice in it. Now, that's normal for me, but, but in this moment, I was particularly looking at this guy, like, I might look at my girlfriend.

I just, I, I gave him this very kind, welcoming, Hey, how are you? He registered that and, and responded in kind and went and sat down. Then at the end of the ride, he came back up and said, what you're doing, how you're addressing people, the tone of voice you're using. It's changing lives.

rex: I'm Rex Holbein and welcome to You Know Me Now, a podcast conversation that strives to amplify the unheard voices in our community, as well [00:01:00] as the individuals and organizations that are in service to those in need.

In these episodes, I want to remind all of our listeners that the folks who share here do so with a great deal of courage and vulnerability. They share a common hope that by giving all of us this window into their world, their opening, an increased level of awareness under understanding, and perhaps most importantly, a connection within our own community.

nathan: Hello. Hi, how are you? Hey, how's it going? Thank you. Hello.

rex: Today we're talking with Nathan v. Nathan is a recognized Seattle based author, filmmaker, photographer, artist, and wait for it, A King County metro bus driver. He is known widely for the connections he creates with riders when driving, he transforms, commuting into community building experiences.

It's a beautiful thing. He is also the author [00:02:00] of two very wonderful books, the Lines That Make Us, and Deciding To See. In 2018, Nathan was recognized as a top influencer in Seattle. I couldn't be more excited to welcome my friend Nathan into this conversation.

Nathan Rex, I am so happy to be sitting here with you.

nathan: What an honor to have this finally coming together. Yeah, it's a, it's a thrill to be here. Thank you.

rex: Um, maybe the best thing to do is to start with, can you just do a quick telling of a, telling us who you are like. Did you grow up here? How old you are, what do you do for work?

nathan: Sure. Um, okay. Born in la. Uh, mostly raised here in Seattle.

Uh, I've been here, um, at least 30 odd years or so. Uh, if you factor in the back and forth. Went to school at University of Washington for photography and cinematography during the day. I work on film, uh, cinema projects, writing projects, photography. I like to dabble. Uh, my, my parents are both painters.

Visual art has always been part of the conversation at night, uh, is when my other [00:03:00] job happens. That's when I drive metro buses and, uh, say hi to people and try to foster community. And, uh, I get as much joy out of that as I do working in the arts. Um, so it's been a continual sort of, uh, ping ponging between those two things.

Been driving buses. This year it'll be 19 years.

rex: Wow.

nathan: Which feels odd to say. Yeah. I guess maybe we're getting old.

rex: Yeah. So people know you for both of those endeavors, right? Yeah. Like you're well known. Um, in both, both

nathan: realms?

rex: Yeah. In both realms. In the, in the movies, the books, the art shows that you've, uh, conducted, but also you're quite well known for driving a bus, which, tell us about that.

Because not every Metro Bus driver, um, that happens to,

nathan: yeah, it's, I wonder if this could be better expressed by someone besides me who is observing me, but from my own perspective, people seem to respond to how I treat the job. Um, I like to think of it as an opportunity. [00:04:00] Uh, I enjoy being out there with the people.

It gives me genuine pleasure and I think people are somehow able to perceive that. The enthusiasm I feel, uh, as an operator is genuine. I'm not sure how they can tell, but I'm glad they do. 'cause I love being out there and Metro's very kind to let me, um. I write a blog about things that happen on the bus.

That blog has evolved into two books, as you know. And,

rex: and can you tell us the name of the blog and then the two

nathan: books? Yes. The blog is, uh, most easily found by type typing in my name Nathan Voss. Um, but the blog is called The View from Nathan's Bus. The first book was, uh, called The Lines That Make Us from 2018.

It was reissued, uh, nationally in 2021. And, uh, that's called The Lines That Make Us Stories from Nathan Sp. And, uh, it's a Washington Book Award, uh, finalist. I never expected that, especially as a debut author. The follow up book, which came out last year is called Deciding to see, uh, the View from Nathan's [00:05:00] Best.

And that dives a little more deeply into the, uh, I don't wanna sound self-important, but the philosophical aspects of, uh, what it means to be out there with the people and some of the things we can, I can learn, uh, from being around them.

rex: The reason I wanted to talk to you was because. Not because I'd read your book, but because I so appreciate who you are as a person.

Right. And I made this jump, uh, in my mind in wanting to interview you that Wow, NA Nathan is such a kind, good person, and he is interfacing with a lot of the people that I get to spend time with, which are the homeless.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and I, I just really wanted to hear your perspective as a, as a metro bus driver with people coming and going all cross sections of, of our population, but very specifically the homeless.

Transportation is such a big issue.

nathan: Yeah.

rex: And, and [00:06:00] having access to the bus is a, is important. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean, it's, it's a, it is a life line, I think for, for

nathan: quite literally. Yes.

rex: Yeah. Yeah. So, but then I read the book, I was pulled over by your. You're a humanist through and through. You love people. It, it shows in every one of I

nathan: do.

Yeah. I still do.

rex: Yeah. Can you talk about where did that come from? Does that, were you a five yearold kid going, I love people. You know,

nathan: you know, I wasn't, I was a 5-year-old kid saying, I love dinosaurs, I love large objects as kiddos. Do you know whether they're, um, trucks or, or buses? Exactly. Buses. Uh, uh, but no, my, my childhood passions were for animals.

And I, I went through phases. The, the reptile phase, the bird phase, the dinosaur fit, and, um, the, the natural world is so intricate, so [00:07:00] vast, uh, and when you're an only child, like I was, uh, there's a lot of time spent doing two things. One, being alone or being around people older than you, often adults. And the first of those informed, my inclination towards nature, my inclination towards reading, there are libraries nearby.

My father worked in a library. Uh, he was the guy who repented, um, repaired old books. Who's the men department? Uh, just one person.

rex: The Mendee?

nathan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what they call it. Uh, mending books. Fantastic. Uh, almost a sanctuary to go to his, uh, workspace and watch him using all these, uh, analog tools to fix the books.

Anyways, it wasn't until adolescence when I discovered people as something infinitely. To me more interesting than the beauty of nature. Um, people are unique in their imperfection, in their incredible capacity for making mistakes, uh, in their [00:08:00] capacity for imagination. And there's just such an endless well of questions One has when, when, when thinking about people and enthusiasm.

And for me, the great place to go to absorb and reflect and consider all of that is art, uh, literature, uh, visual art, history, um, cinema. These are spaces where people ask questions about, uh, what does it mean to be human? All of the, um. Uh, science, religion, and philosophy are preoccupied with very much the same questions, but those fields have an obligation to provide answers.

Art does not. Art can merely ask questions. Art can explore and, and feel. And, uh, that can be the end point of an art piece can

rex: always be right.

nathan: Yeah. Yeah. And, and I like, um, or be free from being Right. Um,

rex: there's

nathan: that too. Yeah. Yeah. So, so I, I found basically I, I was a teenager and I discovered movies and I [00:09:00] discovered people and the excitement of connecting with them, uh, I got deeper into, into literature as something to learn about people with.

And yeah, art is, can be thought of as a shortcut to life experience in terms of, um, finding ways to step into other people's lives, reading these stories, uh, or, or, uh, watching them, um, and learning something about, uh, what it means to be human.

rex: Yeah. That's beautiful.

nathan: That's my huge answer. I'm sorry. It's so longwinded.

rex: No, no, that's, I loved hearing all of that. Um, tell me. Uh, tell me Nathan goes to work. You said you've been doing this since, uh, I

nathan: can't believe I'm saying 19 years and it's actually true. Yeah.

rex: It's

nathan: wild.

rex: Coming up on the big

nathan: Oh

rex: dear. Gold wash 20 years or something. Oh

nathan: gosh. Yeah.

rex: But when, so you're going to work today?

nathan: Yes.

rex: Um, you get on the bus and tell me the frame of mind you're in, like,

nathan: it's exhilarating. You get on the bus, you get behind the wheel, and there is so much life that you're just inundated with. There's no intermediary [00:10:00] between you and the people that you're, uh, seeking to serve and getting to just be present with all these people.

You don't have to sell anything. You don't have to convince them of it. You, you just, you're just there with that. There's

rex: no other agenda.

nathan: There's no other agenda and, and you're, you're packed into this little mobile living room that contains everything glorious and terrible about humanity and. I find that incredibly exciting.

I marvel, I look out with wonder at all of this going on. And, and one of the things I want to emphasize is that to marvel, to wonder, that doesn't just mean to look upon with joy, it also means to look upon with puzzlement, um, humanity is a mystery to me. And the street is a very interesting place because unlike a lot of other sociocultural spaces in our society, there's a distinct lack of pretense on the [00:11:00] street.

Um, the, the people at Third and James or 12th and Jackson are not seeking to pretend to be other than who they are in that moment. There's an honesty there that I really appreciate. It excites me.

rex: Yeah. I I've tried to, I'm gonna ask you to read a couple passages. Sure. Right? Yeah. I was nervous about asking you that because I'm sure you have your own.

Like, oh, that's curious. You'd pick that. But these are, these are two, um, out of really every story pulled me right through, but that's been my experience of meeting people that are homeless, that I'm drawn to them in a way that I'm not in other parts of my life. Mm-hmm. Like, and, and that's not to say anything negative about the friends I have, of course.

nathan: Or

rex: what they're doing, or it's a different

nathan: type of connection,

rex: but it's, but it's profoundly, for me, it's profoundly real. Like somehow it

nathan: Yes.

rex: Distills it down to, oh my God, now we're talking about real shit.

nathan: Exactly. It cuts through the [00:12:00] pretense. Also, there's a neurochemical buzz that we get from interacting with strangers.

Mm-hmm. A positive encounter with strangers energizes us in a way that. Uh, apparently in terms of brain chemistry is unique as compared with positive experiences we have with friends or family because, um, friends or family are not the world at large. They're not society broadly. Strangers are. Yeah. And when we have a positive encounter with strangers, we're reminded on an innate level that, oh my goodness, we have something, I have something in common with everyone that feels so good and yet can only be arrived at that sensation, uh, with a stranger.

rex: Yeah. Yeah. I think you're, it's a primal feel.

nathan: Mm-hmm.

rex: Right. I love it. Like you're, you're kicked into a little bit of that fight or flight and you're, you're, you're kind of like waiting for that moment, right? Like, I'm a little more heightened.

nathan: Sure.

rex: Yeah. Yeah. My, my wife and I do a lot of hiking up in the woods, you know, uh, with, with a tent three or four or five days.

nathan: Yeah.

rex: And there are [00:13:00] times when we've gotten ourself into. A little bit of a fix, right? Like going, okay and there is something real

nathan: mm-hmm.

rex: About that. Like, okay, wait a minute. We gotta get our shit together and think our way through this right now.

nathan: Yes.

rex: And those were our our best memories, right?

nathan: Yeah. Yeah.

'cause we

rex: feel more human.

nathan: You're on the leading edge of life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right at the forefront there.

rex: I decided to ride one of Nathan's roots with my 88-year-old mom. We hopped on the one riding it until it became the 14, and then full circle to where we began. We had a great time. Here is a spontaneous conversation we had with one of Nathan's riders.

Do you know it? Casie? Do you know the bus driver?

Bus rider: Oh yeah, I see him.

rex: Yeah.

Bus rider: Yeah.

rex: I'm recording. Is that okay? It's for a podcast that I'm doing about him.

Bus rider: Oh, okay. Oh yeah, yeah, buddy. He's pretty awesome. He's pretty awesome. Yeah.

rex: Yeah,

Bus rider: yeah. He makes it lively around here. You get, have a bad day. He get on this bus.

He's very positive.

rex: That's [00:14:00] beautiful.

Bus rider: Very positive and informative. Thanks man. I try. No, he does very helpful too at that.

rex: Yeah. How long you been riding the bus?

Bus rider: I'd say like five months. Solid.

rex: Hmm.

Bus rider: Yeah.

rex: Are you new to Seattle?

Bus rider: I really am, yes. So I'm from California, so like when you meet guys like this, it's like kind of warming 'cause you're not used to that.

I'm from

rex: California. Oh, there it is.

Bus rider: Oh man. I'm from, uh, Dago San Diego. Okay.

rex: I'm from la.

Bus rider: Oh, there it is. Yeah. SoCal. Look

rex: at you two California fighting each other. Yeah.

Bus rider: I'm trying to tell you. It's hard out here. There ain't a lot of people from C out here. Hey, I'm Lawrence.

rex: What is it?

Bus rider: Santos.

rex: Santos.

Bus rider: Yes sir.

You too.

rex: Yeah. Alright,

Bus rider: so

rex: where are you going now?

Bus rider: I'm going into Chinatown

rex: and just, uh, for,

Bus rider: uh, well they got some good food out there. Real good food. So if you want some real good authentic, like, uh, Chinese Minong, like just Vietnamese going to Chinatown, even Japanese. Yeah, they got good.

rex: And let [00:15:00] Nathan drive you

Bus rider: and let Nathan drive you.

I'm telling you Nathan is very positive and if you have any information, he'll assist you. And he's always happy to help. Always.

rex: It's true. Thank you

Bus rider: so, so much. I'm not

rex: that good.

Bus rider: Oh, he's good. You see, I,

rex: he's the only one that says he's not that good.

Bus rider: That's okay.

rex: Everybody

Bus rider: else

rex: says he's that good.

Bus rider: He's that good.

rex: How come you came to Seattle?

Bus rider: Um, work? So, um, I did DoorDash, Instacart Framing Roofing. I did it all.

rex: Nice time up here. Been okay.

Bus rider: It's been very great. It's very, very helpful. Like I could always find side jobs. That's what I love about Seattle. Like no matter what, you will find work if you wanna work out here.

rex: Yeah.

Bus rider: Yeah. So

rex: that's good to hear.

Bus rider: Very busy. Yeah. I wanna open a restaurant. I love to open a Mexican restaurant. An authentic one. You

rex: are a busy man.

Bus rider: Well, I mean, I already have dreams. Goals. You got to have goals,

rex: right? You're getting off pretty soon. Tell me one more thing about Nathan that you love.

Bus rider: So, Nathan, you can be here in missing California and missing your [00:16:00] family and then a guy like this and say something and just cheer you up.

Serious.

rex: Yeah. That's beautiful.

Bus rider: Nah, he's treasure. He's the best.

rex: Yeah. I really appreciate you talking to me.

Bus rider: No problem. I do. Thank

rex: you for sharing that.

Bus rider: Yeah, I'm glad. So, a lot of people speak of this guy, huh?

rex: Nathan? Yes. I'm gonna ask you to read, um, a, a couple little paragraphs here.

nathan: This is very exciting, Mike.

I'm, uh, I'm excited to see what strikes you, uh, in the book.

rex: Well, this, this moved me

quite a bit.

nathan: Wow. Okay. Let's see.

rex: This is from,

nathan: oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Story is from, this is, it's called Ode to Aurora. And. This is a piece that, okay, so this book is taught as a textbook at Seattle University and the, the professor who teaches it, she actually teaches both, both books.

She likes to do this story because it throws the, uh, students for a loop because it's not plot based. Mm-hmm. There is no story happening here, per se. It's [00:17:00] more of a description of a space and it's more like a geography as narrative in terms of plot, as narrative. So it's talking about Aurora Avenue, which is a space I really, uh, have a lot of respect for, and I'm really compelled and beguiled by because it seems quite good at resisting the amount of change that a lot of the rest of Seattle is.

It is holding is subject to,

yeah. Yeah. It still looks like the Seattle I grew up in. Yeah.

Um, okay, let's, let's read these couple of paragraphs. Often the thought comes up again. I wouldn't wanna be spending time with any other group of people right now. How can I want to be here? Not as some mere passing anthropological diversion, but day after day after day, what is this feeling that grows richer with the passing of time?

What can I possibly be so enamored with Aurora Avenue? What to be here is to know the human organism. Un adored. I want to feel the truth of life, the tactile earth of the ordinary. These are not extreme [00:18:00] lives, but people like me. A veneer that's present elsewhere has been stripped away and my head feels clear down on the ground.

Diversity paradoxically reminds us of how similar we all are. Commonalities show themselves. There's a confirmation of sorts taking place. Yes, we are a human.

rex: I think it's profoundly beautiful. This one line to be here is to know the human organism. Unadorned that unadorned

nathan: The unadorned part. Yeah.

rex: Is really

nathan: mm-hmm.

rex: Beautifully said. Um,

nathan: yeah. They, they don't have to be likable or, or, or having their best day, but they are, they're existing. We are made of the same DNA, the same molecules.

rex: Yeah.

nathan: Yeah. It excites me to try to be out there and try to let people know that they are respected, that they're loved. Um, uh, I don't often share this in public because it's easy to, uh, ridicule, but, um, I wanna share [00:19:00] here, it's this question that we sometimes ask ourselves, why have we been put on this earth?

Um, there are many ways to think about this question, and I wonder. If the answer that I've come up with is I'm here to make other people feel loved, not to actually love them, that would be emotionally exhausting, but to make them feel loved so that they know what that's like. Mm-hmm. I want 'em to know that, that, that, that sensation is out there.

It's really gratifying to have somebody get on the bus and after I say hi to them, they'll say, you're the first person to talk to me all day long. It makes me feel so good, not because I've selfishly contributed, but because someone else is feeling human right now. And, uh, perhaps I've played a small role in contributing to that.

rex: Yeah.

nathan: Yeah.

rex: Yeah. I think it's vital. I also think for two reasons, it's extremely, um. You know, needed at this time. Mm-hmm. I mean, I think [00:20:00] technology one is, is pushing us further into our own little, uh, it's the great isolator. Cocoons.

nathan: Yeah.

rex: And, uh, and then I think also, you know, regardless of where your politics are mm-hmm.

Both sides would, would agree that these are stressed out times.

nathan: Indeed. People feel, no matter where they're coming from, they feel abandoned, overlooked, ignored, regardless of their political perspective. And that co that puts people in a sort of a survival mode. And survival is inherently a self-absorbed perspective because you're thinking about yourself, your needs.

Yeah. And if your needs are unmet, uh, it's very difficult to think about other people's needs.

rex: Yeah. Needs being met. And also you could throw in, um, another big conversation, please. Which is, which is. Throw it in rest, which is loving yourself.

nathan: Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

rex: You know? Yeah. So it's hard to also focus on loving other people or letting them feel loved.

Yeah. Unless you [00:21:00] genuinely do love yourself

nathan: and it's hard to love yourself. When you're getting a lot of messaging from the world that you are unworthy or lacking worth, you start to believe it after a while.

rex: Yeah.

nathan: It seeps into your bones and you start to think that your life doesn't have value and that it's okay to walk out into the middle of the street and get hit by a car.

rex: Yeah.

nathan: It's difficult to work your way out of that, but I think small steps can play a role.

rex: Well, you also know what you're saying is true when so many people's lives are made better by a simple Hello

nathan: Wow Rex. Yeah.

rex: If we're at that point, right? Like, like a hello. That means, you know, a lot of, um, emotional gas tanks are near empty.

nathan: Yeah. Yeah. If that's doing something,

rex: yeah. If that's doing something. Yeah. Where does, where do you think this comes from within you? Right. The little I know of you and the, and it's been consistent through all of my, um, my interactions with you is that [00:22:00] you are, you are consistently persistently pushing forward with this feeling of, of reaching out to people with kindness and goodness, and, and being excited about

nathan: Yeah.

rex: Them and their journey. And even, you know, even you walking into my little, uh, office here,

nathan: Uhhuh,

rex: you're right away. Oh, you have. You have this, uh, brand book or you have, uh, you know, oh, who did this painting? And like you,

nathan: I'm just, I'm so interested in existence and in other people's lives, it feels so good to listen.

I get more out of listening than out of talking. I know what I'm gonna say, but I don't know what they're gonna say. And life is short. And I, and I want to, it feels good to give joy in answering your question. This often happens at q and as where people will ask me, um, what inspired you to, to make this particular, uh, movie or, or write this book in this way?

And I'll, I'll give them an answer. But often it feels like I'm giving them a supposition that was developed after the [00:23:00] fact. Like I'm basically making up an answer. Because you're

rex: writing the narrative after.

nathan: Yeah. Yeah. Because in the, in the moment it's so intuitive. It's so, you know, in art making thinking is something that you do usually before and after making art, not so much during.

And same thing with how do I, how do I, um. I have this enthusiasm to, uh, bring, bring joy to people. I don't know if I have the requisite self-awareness to give a good answer. Mm-hmm. It makes me feel good to do so. Yeah. Where does it come from? Yeah. Anything good I have probably comes from my parents.

They're great people, great human beings, great role models. However, in, in some ways I'm quite different than them. I'm very gregarious. I enjoy reaching out that those are not words that, that describe them. They're, they're, they're, they're more interior. Where does this come from? Is it the loneliness of the small child seeking to connect with others and having found what is hopefully a healthy outlet, uh, to do that, that's beneficial for other people too.[00:24:00]

Maybe that's what it is.

rex: It's a,

nathan: it's a tough question. It's a great question. Yeah. All the, all the psychiatrists and counselors who are listening will have terrific answers. I'm just sitting here. They're all reaching for their phones. Spit balling. Yeah.

rex: Um, yeah. But it does also feel so, and I, I don't want to keep, um,

nathan: no, this

rex: is great talking things, right.

Please

nathan: suppose,

rex: but, um, it feels like, you know, when you, okay, here's an example. You know, when someone tells you, oh, I'm going to, I'm gonna do this, and it's a, mm-hmm. It's a big change, or I'm, I'm, I'm starting to date this person, or I'm gonna work at that place, or I'm gonna go to school for this, and you have this instant body response, right?

That says, that's incredible. That's so you or. The voice inside going. Yeah. Yeah. That's, yeah. That's a disconnect. I don't know.

nathan: Yeah.

rex: Right. So, yeah. But when I hear you talk about your art and your bus driving, I feel like you're in the zone. Like you're, that's what

nathan: Thank [00:25:00] you.

rex: Like you're doing what you're supposed to be doing.

Does that feel that way to you?

nathan: Yes. Um, I was embarrassed to share this for many years, but in my sixth grade yearbook from elementary school, uh, it asks all of the students what they wanna be when they grow up. Everyone said either astronauts, millionaires, or veterinarians. And then you get to me, who's at the end of the book because of my last name, Vass.

Uh, and I said A Metro bus driver. I said that in 1998. I have no memory of saying that, but I, it was there from the start.

That's beautiful.

And here we are. And it does give me joy. It feels like I, it's, it's. Not quite accurate to call it work, you know?

rex: Yeah.

nathan: Before COVID, it definitely wasn't work. All those first years prior to 2020, it was just a nonstop joy fest.

And now it's still primarily a joy fest, but it has other elements.

rex: Yeah. I feel also, you know, one of the [00:26:00] critical things about work for anybody mm-hmm. Is feeling like you're making a difference and Yeah, you're getting feedback constantly, right?

nathan: Yes.

rex: And from reading your book, you have, you have created a community around you.

nathan: Thank you. And the feedback is very strong. Someone asked me at a recent q and a, um, how do I persist at such a thankless job? Do I feel seen as a sort of hidden working class, uh, uh, blue collar person? And the answer is that I feel very seen, that I feel constantly thanked people coming up to me to tell me that I'm changing what Rainier Avenue is by virtue of, of being generous to the people.

Um, things that people express with their eyes or their gestures if they don't speak the language. It's like that study of, um, you may know more about this than I, but someone who works at a [00:27:00] factory for making tables and puts one leg on every table all day long, he's contributing to the creation of a vast number of tables.

Contrast that with someone else who custom makes a single table, uh, for a family that they then deliver it to in person. It's the latter person who will feel a greater sense of accomplishment, even though he's only made one table. And it's because of the interfacing with the actual person. Yeah. To feel that sense of, and I feel that every day, and that's why.

I'm constantly encouraged to pursue, uh, administrative positions within, uh, king County. And, uh, I'm flattered by that, but no, that's not for me. I gotta be out here on the street in the vortex where it's all happening.

rex: Yeah. On the edge

nathan: exactly. On, on the leading edge of life. Um, and, and being out here with the people, we, we sometimes imagine that we have a very small impact.

How can we have any impact as one person, you [00:28:00] know, is it worthwhile for me to put stuff in the compost and recycle and when, uh, many other people don't? And it is because think about all the things you'll throw in the compost over the course of a lifetime. Think about all the people. I, I, I remind myself, all the people that all encounter on just my one bus, even though there's 1500 other buses there, I do, there's, I see a thousand people every day.

And perhaps it was worth it to come to work if I can make some of these folks feel better for five minutes Yeah. To remind them, uh,

rex: that

nathan: there's goodness.

rex: And I think also another part of this is when you have to like, look at the equation and, and figure the worth, if you can somehow in what we're talking about

mm-hmm.

Is it's not just the worth in the people's lives that you touch, but the deeper meaning you give your own life. Right. Wow. Like when you put that, when you put that compost bag, you know, in the compost.

nathan: Yeah.

rex: Yeah. You, you know, arguably you could make an argument that says Nathan. [00:29:00]

nathan: Mm-hmm.

rex: The world's not gonna fall apart or be saved by you doing this or not doing it true, but you walk away knowing you did it.

nathan: Yes.

rex: And that makes you feel good about how you're living your life,

nathan: and you cannot fake the sensation of being your best self other than just being your best self. And it feels so good. Um, in the second book, there's a line, uh, goodness is the tool we have for resisting death. What I mean by that is, uh, in the first book, you'll, you'll have read the part where I drove over the Aurora Bridge every day and every time I drove over the Aurora Bridge, I thought about two things.

Uh, two things. One, it looks gorgeous out here. It's one of the best views of Seattle. Uh, and secondly, I would think of Mark McLaughlin, the operator who, uh, tragically passed while crossing that bridge, um, due to an incident. And I would have to teach myself how can I feel okay if that happens to me right now?

And [00:30:00] when we're faced with imminent death, uh, we wish to become our best self. We want to make amends. We want to call those people. We never called. We wanna apologize. How about if we do all that right now, that might help me feel more mentally safe in case my bus goes flying off this bridge right this second.

It's a, it's a way of

rex: Yeah.

nathan: Being

rex: ready.

nathan: Yeah. Yeah. And uh,

rex: hmm.

nathan: I realize what we're, this is very hard on its sleeve. It's very sincere, but, um, that's kind of where I'm coming from.

rex: Yeah.

nathan: Uh, a lot. Yeah.

rex: Does it, you know, one of the things people talk about when somebody's doing, uh, things in service for others, they talk about compassion fatigue, right?

Mm. But

nathan: let's talk about this, Rex.

rex: I have a theory as well.

nathan: Okay. Okay. Yeah. Please.

rex: You wanna share first or you want me to,

nathan: I want you to share first.

rex: Yeah. I think. I think it comes down to, [00:31:00] um, it's math. Okay. If it's, if it's giving you more, if, if you are getting more than you're giving, there is no fatigue.

nathan: Mm-hmm.

rex: Right. So for example, I'm guessing for your work, you have a lot of, I'm sure you navigate, I, I've heard it in the book, right? Mm-hmm. But I know that's a small smattering of the amount of things you have to navigate. That could be exhausting to you. Yeah. But I'll also guess since you don't seem fatigued, you seem exhilarated that those are outweighed, the math is still in the favor of you are getting so much.

nathan: Yeah.

rex: You know, by, by that smile or that little look, or maybe even somebody just grabbing your hand and giving it a squeeze.

nathan: Yes.

rex: You know, that's, that's probably, um, keeping you from fatiguing on, on what you're doing.

nathan: I love the way you articulate that. Um. It builds beautifully on what I was gonna say. Uh, there are drivers I [00:32:00] admire because of their consistency of their good attitude.

Uh, when I was starting out at this job, I would go ride different driver's buses just to watch them work. Um, because it's possible to be a great and amazing, compassionate, forgiving person for five minutes. It's difficult to do that for years on end. It's the sustaining of your best self, of a positive outlook, et cetera, of being patient over decades.

Uh, that's a real challenge. And going out and watching some of these drivers, I, I remember this, this operator telling me, he greets every single passenger. It doesn't matter if they respond 'cause he's doing his part. He's at work, he's getting paid and he's gonna take, and he did not need them to reciprocate his kindness.

I found that extremely inspiring. The title of the first book, the Lines that Make Us, uh, we can see, we can think of that as a reference to bus lines, [00:33:00] but for me it refers to lines like that sentences that people will say that they don't realize are these, for me, incredible nuggets of wisdom that I want to put in my pocket and say for later.

Yeah. I still remember, uh, this driver, Ernie, saying that to me. He probably has no memory of that moment, but I think about that every day. Yeah. I'm saying hi to all these people. Yes. Half of them have their headphones in. Yes. Half of them are too depressed or stressed to hear me, and that's fine. Um, I'm doing my part.

I'm doing my part. Uh, in further answering to your question, there's exposure to other demographics of people. Uh, plays a role in our degree of prejudice towards them. If we're never exposed to these various groups of folks, it's very easy to dislike people we've never met.

rex: Mm-hmm. Or buy into,

nathan: buy into negative

rex: stereotype.

nathan: Exactly. 'cause we

rex: have nothing to refute

nathan: it. We have exactly. We, we have nothing to refute it. And once you start spending more time, uh, with, uh, this or [00:34:00] that group of people, uh, often you start to come around and you realize, oh, these folks are, uh, have, uh, approximately the same, um, desires, fears, hopes, uh, that I do.

And overcoming prejudice, I think is most successfully done in that manner. Interpersonal, direct contact. You, you don't get people to come around on the question of racism or prejudice by presenting them data. You know, it's when they, when their coworkers black or their friends kid is trans. That's how you bring people around.

Now with bus driving. It's not a question of I'm not getting enough exposure with, uh, people on the street. The danger for bus driving is being overexposed. You get into the other end of the spectrum where the needle is going off the, off the radar because you have too much exposure to, uh, this demographic of people.

[00:35:00] And boy, no cult, no class or cultural group of folks has a monopoly on bad behavior. There are, there are folks on the street who behave very badly. And when you're exposed to a lot of that, it is possible to become jaded, to stop looking for the good.

rex: Yeah.

nathan: Uh, the title of the second book, deciding to see

rex: mm-hmm.

nathan: Is a reference to this. You have to choose to look for the good stuff or else you're gonna stop noticing it. Imagine that and that something Yeah.

rex: I imagine police,

nathan: yeah. A real challenge,

rex: right? Because their work all day long is. Dealing with people who have chosen to do something bad,

nathan: the worst of humanity.

Exactly. They're, they're, they're, they're exposed to the worst decisions that people make. And, um, they are in a, in a state of high tension, high stress, um, safety as one of our essential needs. If you don't feel safe, if your needs are not being met, you will not think about other people's needs. You'll make decisions from a place of fear.

Yeah. Instead of, from a place of empathy and [00:36:00] patience, we should not be surprised at, uh, some of the behaviors that manifest as a result.

rex: Yeah. It creates tunnel vision.

nathan: Exactly.

rex: So, but again, back to the question of, uh, compassion fatigue. Mm-hmm. So what you're saying is that, is that it's a choice too.

nathan: It's a choice.

I have to work at it every day. I have to sign up for, I'm gonna look for the good stuff, otherwise I'm just gonna think, uh, this bus smells bad. I am. Or these, it's a

rex: constant, what the fuck?

nathan: These people are being disrespectful. Uh, why can't they get it together? And then, um, your, your mind starts to go down and.

It's, it's, it's a slippery slope. It's the fall. And, and the scariest thing about what some drivers and I call the fall, which is this, this thing happening to you is that you're always the last person to realize that you've turned into, uh, no, absolutely. Insufferable, jaded, you know, hateful person. I'm that person.

No, exactly. And, and it takes a, it takes a while to, to climb outta that. And so the thing I [00:37:00] try to tell myself is if something's bothering me, even if it's very slight, I want to make sure it's not snowballing into a negative perspective about humanity, because

rex: catch it right away,

nathan: then I'm lost. Uh, like I say in the intro of that book, um, are, are humans good or bad?

Is the world a good or bad place? I'm not even sure a truthful answer to that matters if we believe that it's good. Then we will behave accordingly. Mm-hmm. Then we will cause more goodness to happen. Mm-hmm. If we have no hope, uh, we're not gonna contribute.

rex: Yeah. And, and it's also very true that behavior begets like behavior.

Right. It sure

nathan: does.

rex: You, you can, you can change a room's vibe simply by the way you walk in.

nathan: Exactly. You

rex: know?

nathan: Yeah.

rex: Um. Have you gone down that rabbit hole in your, in your almost

nathan: 20

rex: years?

nathan: Sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. There was a period, um, during pandemic lockdown where I was still working. I was, I was, I was driving the eline and, [00:38:00] uh, I really enjoyed the eline.

We just talked about Aurora Avenue, but that was a period where people were feeling particularly antisocial. Mm-hmm. They, they were discovering all the new drugs, which are really bad for them. And, uh, there's just a lot of death, a lot of obviously perceivable catastrophe and everyone was just really depressed and stressed.

Yeah. Yeah. And that fed off onto me, and I was going through difficult personal times, and so it all felt of a piece. And that was a, that was a difficult place.

rex: Yeah.

nathan: And naming it is one of the first steps.

rex: Yeah.

nathan: Mm-hmm.

rex: You know, I wanna, I want to share one thing. Go back, because we were talking about the community that you created, and one of the things in the book that I really, I just thought was beautiful was the Black Lives Matter protest up by St.

Mark's.

nathan: Yes.

rex: That all the buses were stacked up and then [00:39:00] you guys were all having to kind of, in real time figure out how to, how to manage this screwed up bus schedule and that there would be people south

nathan: on the other side of town

rex: that would be sitting there for an hour, hour and a half, and that. Whoa.

To the first bus driver. Yeah,

nathan: exactly.

rex: And it ended up being you.

nathan: Yeah.

rex: And people, there was, I can't remember exactly the, the, the story, but there was a, a guy that got on and he was like, he was ready to rip Uhhuh, rip the person. He's head off everyone.

nathan: Yeah.

rex: And then he saw it was you and he got on and he is like, oh my God, I can't believe it's you.

nathan: Yeah. I can't, I can't cast you out. Yeah.

rex: Yeah. I can't curse.

nathan: Yeah. I felt very fortunate that I, you know,

rex: diffused it with your,

nathan: built some relationships beforehand

rex: for, yeah. For

nathan: moments like that.

rex: Um, yeah. That speaks a lot though into, um, you know, we think of events that happen and what we do in that moment, right?

Yeah. Like how important that is. But often it's, it's so [00:40:00] much of what happened before. Yes. Like what relationship do I have?

nathan: Oh yeah.

rex: Um,

nathan: you don't know who, who that is, who's getting on the bus. There's been times when I have. Uh, waited for a passenger after almost not waiting for them, and the person turns out to be a friend of mine.

You know, you just never know who's there.

rex: Yeah.

nathan: The general manager of Metro rides buses and you don't wanna leave her waiting on the side of the road, you know? Yeah.

rex: That's funny. That actually makes me think of a question that I've had before, unrelated to talking to you, and that is when we've all seen it, when someone's, the bus is starting to take off and someone's running after it.

nathan: Yes. It's a complex situation.

rex: It's a very complex situation. 'cause one, the bus has gotta stay on time, I'm sure. Um, there's probably safety issues. You're no longer at the bus stop. Potentially. I can guess, maybe a couple more, but I've always wondered like, what's going through the [00:41:00] bus driver's mind?

nathan: Yes.

rex: Because they see 'em typically, right? Yes. Sometimes they're even banging on the side of the bus.

nathan: It's a great question. Let's explore it because I think we've all been there. Um, the best, best drivers are the ones who've also ridden the bus. Hm, because then you know what it's like to run for a bus. You know what it's like to miss a bus, and it's a lot easier, excuse me, to be sympathetic with passengers in those moments.

However, there are other things you have to consider. If your bus comes every five minutes, like the Eline does, and the afternoon rush hour, uh, I'm not gonna wait for people because a light cycle is a minute and a half. I'm, I'm quickly going to become late to the degree that you'll have two or three buses in a row.

And we've all been there where you're waiting forever and suddenly three, uh, 40 eights show up and. That's because the first driver has been doing too much of this, of, of that

rex: kind of

nathan: Exactly. It's, and so, and so it's a, it's a real challenge. You, you gotta sort of think about, [00:42:00] um, I'm thinking about usually what factors into my decision in terms of leaving someone who's running is how close is the next best behind me that's going to the same place.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Often on third Avenue, you get people who are just going from Bell to, uh, James Street or from Pike to Virginia, and there's a million buses that do that. So I may not wait in those instances. However, if it's nighttime and I'm driving the 1 31, which only comes once an hour, I'm gonna wait for the whole study of Seattle to run for the bus.

Yes, we will become late, but that's okay.

rex: Yeah,

nathan: because we need to get all these people home. And that's

much

rex: more important. Yeah. That's a great answer.

nathan: Thanks man. Thank you.

Hello. Thanks for coming back down here. Yeah, he's one of my favorite drivers.

rex: Oh, really? I'm a good little recording for a podcast that we're featuring him. What can you tell me about Nate? Why do, why do, he's one of your favorites?

Speaker 30: Because he's nice. '

rex: cause he's nice.

Speaker 30: Yeah. [00:43:00] He does everything that he can for a passenger.

90% of the other drivers don't give two craps about it.

rex: Yeah.

Speaker 30: Good drivers. And so it's

rex: easy to feel the difference.

Speaker 30: Oh yeah. Totally. Nice. Yeah.

rex: How long have you been riding the bus?

Speaker 30: Only a year so far actually.

rex: Yeah,

Speaker 30: so,

rex: but right away you can tell maybe.

Speaker 30: Oh yeah. Yeah. The first time I stepped on his bus was up on 12th coming down.

And you can tell by his demeanor. That he's just a different type of bus driver.

rex: That's awesome. Thank you for telling

Speaker 30: me. Not a problem.

rex: What's your name?

Speaker 30: Manny.

rex: Manny? Yeah. Yeah. I'm Rex. Nice to meet you. Good to meet you, Manny.

Okay. I'm gonna ask you to read, uh, another passage.

nathan: Let's do it.

rex: Okay. This is,

nathan: wow.

I'm so glad you chose this. This doesn't often show up in, uh, in book talks, so, okay. It's May 11th, 2018. A familiar [00:44:00] face came into focus amongst the crowd there. She was a middle aged Vietnamese woman. I've seen only a few times in as many years. Sometimes she'd be on the route with her daughter or we'd talk about the bakery.

She works at, what was her name again? I barely know this person. And yet, how is it the way such glancing interactions can feel so special to us? Moments no less formative than those we make with our off, more considered loved one. Two strangers who glow for each other, appreciating each other's attitudes on life.

Whose places in the world are each comforted by the other's existence?

rex: When you read that again, what does it conjure up in you? What are you, what are you feeling?

nathan: It reminds me of later on in that story I make mention of the idea that when two strangers, when two acquaintances, someone you used to know from work or somebody you went to high school with, when you encounter them on the other side of the world, when you're traveling in Europe, suddenly the two of you [00:45:00] are best friends.

That sensation is how I feel whenever I run into that

woman,

um, because I see her intermittently. Lots of life, years of life transpire in between. Uh, when I encounter her. And yet when I see her again, it's that same glow that we make for each other. I know this person and she knows me, a part of me. And to get to share in that all of the time collapses between the current encounter in my last one.

rex: Yeah. That's beautiful. I was struck by, um, I won't get it right, but this comment about two strangers glowing for each other.

nathan: Yeah.

rex: I really, um, I love how you worded that and it, it's very, um, it tapped into something for me that I'm always interested in is that we all meet, we all meet many people in our lives, right?

Mm-hmm. And we walk past untold number of people.

nathan: Mm-hmm.

rex: And [00:46:00] some people for some reason

nathan: Yes.

rex: Just draw you're drawn. Yes. And I, and I'm very curious about, um, those instances. And I also believe that though, it's very important for us. Um, I, I can think of it as an example with homelessness, right? Mm-hmm.

Like we can walk past a lot of people who are suffering on the streets. Yeah. And, and yet maybe one person will really pull on your heart.

nathan: Yeah.

rex: For what reason? Not necessarily because there's suffering more than other people, but somebody will really touch you.

nathan: Yeah.

rex: I think it's important that we, we make a connection.

Yes. Like something's happening.

nathan: Listening to that.

rex: Yeah. Something's happening there. And I, and so I need to say hello. I need to go, Hey, I don't know why, but I wanted to say hi to you. You know, I, what's your name?

nathan: Rex. I love your courage. And, and doing that in those moments, your confidence of self and your trust [00:47:00] in humanity.

It's so beautiful. And yes, I completely sympathize with those moments. It feels so electric to feel that pull. It's. It comparable to what we might feel when we're talking about romantic attraction. Uh, of course it's not the same, but it's something comparable where you feel seen, you feel a commonality with this person and you see them and you want them to know that they're seen.

And for some reason, all the multitudinous factors that make up who we are as a person, something is aligning.

rex: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And I also think it's a skill to listen to it. So the more that we, the more that we feel that, but walk past it, the easier it gets to do it again. To ignore it. Exactly. And then pretty soon it just atrophies and disappears.

Yes. But I also believe that the more that we do that, that we lean into that

nathan: keeping that muscle alive,

rex: the better we [00:48:00] get at it and

nathan: yielding to that impulse.

rex: Yeah. And it got me thinking about you, about all the people that walk up those. Two or three steps.

nathan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

rex: And, and you're making eye contact with and saying hi.

nathan: Yeah.

rex: Like, that must happen to you a, a fair amount of like, you know, hi, nice to meet you. Hi, nice to meet you. And then maybe

nathan: some Oh, hi. Yeah. Yeah.

rex: Somebody suddenly Yeah. Connects, like, like

nathan: yeah. Direct eye contact. Something feels real there.

rex: Yeah. Yeah.

nathan: I remember this, uh, guy just recently getting on the 14 who I looked at him, there are so many muscles surrounding the eye.

For some reason, everything was happening quickly. And I looked at him with a face that had no malice in it. Now, that's normal for me, but, but in this moment, I was particularly looking at this guy. Like, I might look at my girlfriend. You know, I just, I, I gave him this very kind, welcoming, [00:49:00] Hey, how are you?

He registered that. And responded in kind and went and sat down. Then at the end of the ride, he came back up and said, what you're doing, how you're addressing people, the tone of voice you're using mm-hmm. Is changing lives. And this is a guy obviously homeless, obviously dealing with some sort of, um, uh, drug challenge, but who felt compelled to speak about this?

It wasn't just that he was affected by this kindness. He was affected so much that he had to tell me about it and felt brave and comfortable enough to do so. I was so moved.

rex: Yeah, that's beautiful.

nathan: Just, just given someone that that kind face.

rex: Yeah.

nathan: Wow.

rex: I, I, this is gonna sound overstated, but I, I could make an argument that would say, I'm not sure there's anything more important.

nathan: Yeah, yeah.

rex: You know,

nathan: I remember something you said, I don't know, 10 years ago, you, you, you were giving a talk in front of, I don't know, I don't know [00:50:00] what it was, but you were telling us. That you don't see, correct me if I'm misremembering, that you don't see a value difference between building a new building that can house, uh, 300 homeless people versus saying hello to someone on the street.

I was incredibly moved by that, and I, and I've always taken that with me as, okay, uh, maybe I am doing something valuable here.

rex: Mm,

nathan: yeah.

rex: Yeah, you beautifully are.

nathan: Oh, thank you.

rex: Yeah. I think, I think one of the problems with it, of course, is one's measurable and the other one isn't.

nathan: And, and we play so much value on the quantifiable, the

rex: metrics.

nathan: Yeah, exactly. And there's, there's quite a bit that, um, surpasses that. I was just reading Cannery Rowe by Steinbeck, speaking of celebration of Hidden Lives, and he's talking about how, uh, kindness, patience, forgiveness, mercy, these are traits that we uphold and we value. [00:51:00] That do not lead to material success.

Avarice, grade selfishness, these are traits that we look down on that do lead to material success. Fair. Why do we live in a society that's so contrarian to our own values? I'm not sure.

rex: I don't know that one

nathan: either, but,

rex: but if you can put your finger

nathan: on that one. Right. As I grow, I find myself really responding to the idea of, okay.

I, I no longer, okay. This is thinking a little bit about the, the artist's journey. You're a, you're a teenager, you think you're the most important, greatest thing who ever lived. You're in your twenties. You're, you're trying to prove to the world that you're amazing. You have an intense desire to prove yourself and let everyone know that you're awesome.

In your thirties, you're coming to terms with your own insignificance. You're realizing that there's a lot more peace and happiness to be found in accepting who you are [00:52:00] and that you do not need, uh, to accumulate awards or other accomplishments to convince other people, um, that you're a nice person who's worthy of being loved and respected.

Uh, there are a lot easier ways to do that, that don't involve compromising your values. And, and the, the, the beauty of all these lives I see out on, on the street, um, and I'm referring to everyone, not, not just, uh, uh, homeless passengers. The beauty of uncelebrated lives, hidden lives. Those are lives I look up to.

Those are the people who I wish were on our billboards, uh, around the city as I allude to in the book. But those are pe I have, I have a lot of respect for someone who doesn't need to be in the limelight where their end goal is not what are my accomplishments, but rather to what degree will people miss me when I'm gone?

You know? What was my direct personal impact on people? Yeah,

rex: yeah. People that are doing what they're doing with no other agenda. Other Exactly. Other [00:53:00] than,

nathan: yeah,

rex: this feels good to be, to be loving and kind to you.

nathan: And in filmmaking, often people I'm collaborating with are, are here for different reasons. Um, some of them wanna win awards and become famous.

Some of them think that that will bring them, uh, what they're looking for. Yeah. Others have been able to find what they're looking for in much more modest, much more humble. But I think. Altogether more rewarding ways.

rex: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's a, it's a similar conversation when you think about people that are in service to those that are homeless.

nathan: Mm-hmm.

rex: People come to it for lots of different reasons,

nathan: lots of different reasons,

rex: you know? Yeah. I wanna feel good about myself, or I wanna be recognized or

nathan: Yeah.

rex: Or I'm, I'm just in love with this person because they're so amazing and Yeah. So there's, it's a, mm-hmm. You know, we're all in our personal journeys.

Yes. Every one of us.

Speaker 27: No. No. Okay. Thank you guys. Hello.

How you doing?

Bus rider: Three. [00:54:00] Like when you guys, somebody like this, there's only been two bus drivers like Nathan, right? He's the second one I've met here in Seattle. You don't need bus drivers like that, but he's been very, um, he's very informant, but at the same time, he's very compassionate. And so he is very aware and conscious of his drivers or his passengers.

And so, uh, there's something about him, you know, in this world, look, people are very selfish and people are like, the world's moving where people don't got time 'cause you're just working. So it's like, nobody sees anybody nowadays. And so when somebody, you're in the world and you're going to, you got something going on and then you're like, okay, look, it's traumatic, but it's nothing.

'cause you always bounce back. It's like you get on a bus and then this guy's like, Hey, how you doing? He like, Hey man, I need to get over here and I need, it's the time to

rex: connect.

Bus rider: It's the time to connect. Yeah. So, yeah, he's uh, hell yeah. He's the real

rex: deal.

Bus rider: Yeah, he cool. He real cool. And then you be blessed, brother.

rex: It's nice

Bus rider: to meet you. You too.

rex: I [00:55:00] want to jump into, um. A conversation about homelessness. And can, can we start by telling a little bit about our friend Laroi, who we, let's

nathan: do the Laroi moment.

rex: Yeah. Who we both love.

nathan: Yeah. So, gosh, when was this? 2013. I, I can't remember. A long, long time ago. Uh, I was driving the number seven. It's 1130 at night.

It's my last trip of the evening. Uh, exciting things always happen on your last trip. Somehow the world knows that you're about to get off work and doesn't wanna let you go yet. And this, uh, kid gets on, young guy gets on underneath I 90 at Rainier Avenue and uh, I say hi like I do to all the passengers and he says hi back to me.

He makes direct eye contact and says hello. A little bit surprising 'cause um, young people don't always do that. He is wearing nondescript gray sweatpants and a long sleeve sort of generic blue sweatshirt. I think he had a basketball with him and he went and sat in the back. And we continue our way through town.

Eventually he's the [00:56:00] only person left on the bus and he comes up to the front, which again, I'm not expecting 'cause 'cause we're at the last stop or something. I have both doors open and kids always get off the back door, you know? Uh, but he doesn't, he comes to the front and he says, um, I'm sorry to be a bother.

I hate to be an inconvenience. I don't wanna be an imposition. He says a few different versions of that. And then he says, um, I really am what I'm looking for. I'm looking for a place to sleep. I need somewhere to lie down. And I could sense that this person has probably never had to say that before.

There's a certain intersection of shame and vulnerability and need that you have to be in, in order to say that. And he was there, not the easiest place to be. And so we started talking. He was, I think he was 18, he was slightly too old for like, some of the youth services, like the, uh, the Orion. I, um, I named a couple of other things.

Talking about [00:57:00] night Watch the men's shelter, bread of life, uh, the mission. Um, all of this was useless information 'cause it was 12:21 AM all this is closed. And he started explaining a little bit of his story. He just landed here this night from a long train ride from Philadelphia. He is running away from home from an abusive family situation.

And he wanted to start life over in a new city. He'd always thought of Seattle, didn't know anyone here. Uh, I don't usually carry money when I'm driving buses. Uh, especially not at night. Especially not on the seven. Not a great idea. But I had $20 with me and I said, here, uh, uh, Laroi, his name's Laroi. You should have, you should have these $20.

Don't pay me back. And he's like, no, no, no. I can't accept that. I can't accept that. I can't. And I was like, no, look at your situation. You need to here have $20. I'm giving this to you. This is worth,

rex: this is worth more to you than it is

nathan: to me. Yeah, this is gonna help you. And, and he was. He was nervous. He was, he was dispirited.

He was in a new city. New cities always [00:58:00] appear much larger than they actually are when you're, when you're fresh into them. And that's where he was. And I said, don't worry, you're, you're, you're gonna make it. And he was saying, but I have no other plan. And I was saying, it's the people who have no plan B who do follow through on their plan A 'cause they have no other choice.

It's gonna be fine. And, uh, I, he left the bus and I didn't see him again. And I wondered what would, what's gonna happen? You wonder about these faces, you know, and you go home in the middle of the night and you're, you're, you're lying there looking at the ceiling. And these are the things I think about. I think about those faces.

What's gonna happen to that young guy? And four days later I'm at the Real Change annual breakfast. Uh, it's a, it's a fundraiser. It's a big to-do that they do every year at, uh, the convention center, uh, for the street newspaper. Real change. A, after the event, I'm walking down one of those long exit hallways inside the convention center, and I see a figure walking away from me.

It's [00:59:00] wearing, uh, nondescript gray sweatpants in a generic long sleeve blue sweatshirt. And I call out Leroy and he turns around, it's him, and he runs towards me. He says, Nathan, he runs towards me. He gives me the biggest, greatest hug I've ever gotten, says, Nathan, you saved my life. And he explains what, uh, happened the rest of the night.

He found, uh, uh, actually a nice, uh, Seattle police officer, um, uh, who helped him, uh, this, this, this white Seattle police officer helping this young black kid find, uh, a shelter for the night and, uh, directing him on what to do next. And Leroy, as you and I both know, very resourceful, very motivated, go-getter type of person.

He. And, uh, he was telling me this is only four days after he's gotten to Philadelphia. He's lined up four interviews for jobs. Three of them, he would make it to, two of them would hire him. One of them would turn into a full-time job. [01:00:00] This was in October of that year. He had a goal to have an apartment by Thanksgiving.

And he did?

rex: Yeah.

nathan: When Thanksgiving came around. This guy, very, very impressive. I'm still friends with him. It's a decade later and it's been exciting to watch him thrive. He's especially good at climbing the ladders of difficulty when he's confronted with them.

rex: Yeah. So the experiences you've had with mm-hmm.

With the population that's living unsheltered.

nathan: Yeah.

rex: What do you have, do you have some, some like wisdoms that you've gained over the years that you would share with listeners?

nathan: We all know not to judge a book by its cover. That's useful to keep in mind when interacting with people. It's also constructive to remember that.

There's a lot of difference from life to life as much as there is commonality. I remember talking to a guy at 12th and Jackson one night. He said, no one's life makes sense from the outside. And I found that to be a very useful thing [01:01:00] to carry with me. That's beautiful. Yeah. Isn't that, it's great. Wow. It's just such a succinct piece of wisdom.

I notice that generalizations about the, uh, homeless or unhoused community, whichever words we're using, um, tend not to hold very well. My partner works at a law firm where, uh, there she's working with high net worth and individuals. They have to have, I think it's, uh, 50 million is the low barrier of entry of, for being able to, uh, be a client at this firm.

So she comes home and tells me these stories about, uh, super rich people. I'm telling her stories about guys standing on street corners. And what we notice is that these stories are largely the same. The generalizations that we can [01:02:00] make that seem to make the most sense and are the most truthful encompass the totality of humanity.

Both of these groups of people are sometimes happy and sometimes stressed out. That varies in percentage from person to person and from day to day. Uh, people with tons of money and people with no money. Those are the two groups of people that think about money a lot. Um, and, um, they are trying to achieve their goals.

They are, uh, confounded by how, uh, challenging it is to live. They are. Trying to figure out what they want. They are, uh, often held back by, uh, self-sabotage, a very natural human trait. This affects everyone and we access it in whatever the state of our life is. There's a lot of universality, and it's concealed.

It's [01:03:00] cloaked under incredible, superficial material difference.

rex: Yeah. Yeah. As, as your friend said, uh, viewing it from the outside

nathan: Exactly right. It's gonna seem nonsensical and absurd and easy to judge

rex: actually. Yeah. Both. Equally,

nathan: yeah. Both.

rex: Right. Yeah. And, and easy to judge as well. I mean, I think that's an important

nathan: mm-hmm.

rex: Comment that the, the severe judgment that society has on very poor. Individuals

nathan: mm-hmm.

rex: Could easily be matched by Absolutely. The judgment put on very wealthy people because we have high expectations of what they could do mm-hmm. With their money without knowing anything about what they are or aren't doing.

nathan: I feel like I'm in this unique position, uh, because I work in film, in the arts, and on the street where I am exposed to. Uh, I, I do know people who are very wealthy and I know people who are very poor, and [01:04:00] I don't think everyone has this type of access. It's great to drive through Pioneer Square during first Thursday and see everyone out there with their cocktail dresses and cheese and crackers, and to look in the mirror in my bus and see all of my street peeps as well.

I, I have friends in both of these spaces. I feel very fortunate that way, uh, because it reminds me of their commonalities. There's a, there's a great section in War and Peace where Tolstoy is writing about. How suffering is more of a binary thing in, in terms of, um, one of the characters is putting on her boot and she stubbs her toe.

And Tolstoy suggests that that suffering, although very minor is still suffering just as much as dying on the battlefield is suffering. Um, you can always find someone who's suffered more than you, but that does not invalidate what you're going through.

rex: Yeah.

nathan: You know, and everyone is fighting their own interior [01:05:00] battles that are complicated and feel insurmountable regardless of their

rex: Absolutely.

nathan: Class or their situation. And I think you

rex: can't compare traumas.

nathan: You can't compare traumas and, and people are all like a few rungs down on the ladder from where we were five years ago. Everyone's kind of struggling and, and uh, that's not the easiest place to be and. All of us, I think, feel uniquely abandoned or overlooked, forgetting that everyone else feels the same too.

And, um, we feel that our rights are at stake, but everyone else also feels that way.

rex: Yeah.

nathan: Yeah.

rex: We're going through it together.

nathan: We're going through it together, whether we realize that

rex: or not, whether we feel it's specifically about us or not.

nathan: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

rex: Um, how long are you gonna drive a bus for?

nathan: This is not a job that I'm doing while I'm waiting to become super successful as an artist.

Right. That is not my trajectory here. Yeah. I realize it's easy to frame the sort of working class [01:06:00] artist from that perspective, but that's not always the goal. I love being the artist with the day job because, uh, it gives me the freedom to say no to artistic projects. I don't feel like doing, you know, as a freelancer you don't have that opportunity.

And I also. Love the, I love the work. Yeah. This is the type of thing I would do as a volunteer if I worked at an office.

rex: Yeah. And

nathan: I wanna keep doing

rex: this. And, and to be clear, I was catching myself about why they asked that question, but I, I realized it wasn't from a frame of, of mind of saying how much longer in the sense, oh, of course.

Are you, are you going to, it's more like, I didn't want you to stop.

nathan: I wanna keep going. Yeah. Yeah. Um, uh, it's one of the, it's your thing. It's one of the few jobs with a pension. If you do 30 years, you got this, you know?

rex: Yeah.

nathan: Uh, and I will, if they let me keep coming in, I'm gonna keep coming in. Yeah. Um, it gives me so much joy to get to participate in the act of what a city is in such a fundamental, such a [01:07:00] focused, and.

Potent manner. Yeah. To be in the, in the eye of the hurricane, the vortex, whatever metaphor we wanna use. It feels really good to be out there. Yeah. It feels like I'm actually doing something.

rex: Yeah.

nathan: You know, you wanna do work where you're rolling up your sleeves and you're getting your hands dirty, accomplishing something that feels tactile.

Um, even if, like we said, it's not quantifiable.

rex: Yeah.

nathan: Yeah.

rex: If people want to, um, learn more about you, we should have you plug yourself for a second.

nathan: Yeah. I would encourage that if you're, if you're interested in the books, I, I recommend them. Um, they're sort of a armchair versions of what it's like to be out, out there on the street, driving a bus, being there with the people.

Um, the stories are mostly unexpectedly hopeful or positive things. I think it was Gertrude Stein who intimated in a lot of her work that. The artist has an obligation to provide hope. People can get [01:08:00] depressed all by themselves. They don't need us, uh, uh, to bring them down. We need to bring them up. We need to offer, um, uh, a perspective that inspires them, galvanizes them.

Um, you

rex: do that beautifully in Thank

nathan: you. In the book

rex: that I read it. I was gonna say it, it, there is almost a spiritual, um,

nathan: I

rex: hope so. Feel to it, right? Like, when I like, like reading it, I felt. Um, like I wanted to, first thing I would do when I saw you in the morning was to give you a hug. Right?

nathan: Thank you, Rex.

Yes, the, uh, I'm coming from literature when I'm writing, I, I'm always reading anything between 18, 20 and, uh, I guess 1950. I'm there. I'm there. That's the golden age of the novel. There's such great work there. There's, um, and the essay format, if we think of the French SAA to attempt, these are attempts at, uh, bringing the, the world of the street, [01:09:00] bringing a certain perspective to the reader.

Um, the little description for the new book, if I may read it. Uh, Nathan Voss, award-winning author of the Lines that Make Us Returns with Deciding to See, that's the name of the new book, A collection of True Stories from his Night job driving Metro buses, focusing on the value of grief, connection, and hope as ways forward during our challenging times.

That's kind of what we're trying to do with this new book. And I don't mean to sound self-aggrandizing by reading that description myself. Nope. I want, I'm glad you did. But, um, it's available at any bookstore, anywhere you go to buy books. Um, and then your mom, my name is on, yeah. Yeah. Nathan voss.com.

rex: Yeah,

nathan: the blog is there.

There's more information about the books, and there's an enormous amount of, uh, uh, press videos, et cetera.

rex: Yeah. Nathan, I just love you.

nathan: I

rex: love you back. This has been such a treat. You are such an inspiration and, and I'm grateful that you're spending this morning with us and, and sharing your thoughts and feelings about the world and, and your view from the bus.

nathan: Thank you. I feel so lucky to be here. There's so much more we can chat about. [01:10:00] I'm so grateful to get to participate.

rex: I want to share one final quote from Nathan's book. The Lines that Make Us, it reads, quote, the outfit of the street person can't be faked, or at least not very well because its principle ingredient is time.

End of quote. I love this insight. It says so much about what people outside go through and how the experience leaves a mark on them. I would say the same about what Nathan shares with his writers. It can't be faked. Because his principle ingredient is time. For nearly 20 years, Nathan has been leaving his mark of joy and kindness on all who ride along with him.

You know me now is a project under the non-profit facing homelessness. It is produced, written, and edited by Tomasky and me Rex Holbein. Please join the nearly 60,000 followers on our very active facing homelessness Facebook and Instagram pages [01:11:00] where you can join in on the conversation. Thank you for listening to this episode of You Know Me Now.