Rex: [00:00:00] This podcast contains potentially sensitive topics. Listener discretion is advised.

Sabra: All I want is a room somewhere. Borrow away from the Cold Night air with one enormous it lovely

award and it be lovely, lovely, lovely, lovely award and it

be lovely. I would always sing that to like amuse myself because I didn't know if people, when I was busking, if they knew that I actually would really love a room somewhere.

Rex: I'm Rex Holbein and welcome to You Know Me Now, a podcast conversation that strives to amplify the unheard voices in our community as well as the individuals and organizations that are in service to those in need. In these episodes, [00:01:00] I want to remind all of our listeners that the folks who share here do so with a great deal of courage and vulnerability.

They share a common hope that by giving all of us this window into their world, their opening, an increased level of awareness, understanding, and perhaps most importantly, a connection within our

Sabra: own community.

Today we have the great

Rex: pleasure of hearing from Sabra Boyd. For those of you who don't know Sabra, she is the editor in Chief of Real Change. Seattle's award-winning street newspaper. Sabra herself is also an award-winning independent journalist, public speaker, consultant, and web developer. She covers stories about exploitation in all forms, including healthcare, homelessness, trafficking, tech, prison, food and beauty.

As usual, we [00:02:00] start the conversation asking Sabra to tell us a bit about her childhood.

Sabra: I was born in Arizona. I was born on the set of Raising Arizona, the Cohen Brothers movie, and I worked as a child actor. My first job as a child actor was when I was six months old, ironically, to advertise a college savings account for a bank, like a college savings program.

Uh, and then of course there was no college savings account for me because my parents stole all the money I earned as a child actor. My, my mom worked on, um, the set of the movie and she was working in the film industry until, basically, until we had to run away from my dad because he had, he had destroyed her career by basically calling every single director, producer, agent that she worked with, um, who would hire her and, and threatened to kill them.

And so it, and I mean it is a small industry and so, or a [00:03:00] tight-knit industry. And so nobody would hire my mom. And so therefore, like, yeah, we just didn't have any money at that point. And um, and he would also steal her paychecks when she did manage to get a job.

Rex: Saber was a talented kid with plenty of smarts, but she was also born into an unstable and very abusive family.

Sabra: I decided to run away when I was seven. I, I had, I had this plan, you know, a seven year old's plan and I had a horse at the time 'cause I also competed in rodeos. I was a rodeo princess. And then I, and I packed my saddle bags with apples sandwiches, water, a lot of water because it was the desert. And, um, and then my head shots and my resume as a 7-year-old, because my plan was to ride my horse to California from Phoenix to la.

I was gonna book a job within a week because I, I mean, I wasn't like a super famous child actor, but I was a working actor and you know, I'd get a job within a week [00:04:00] on a commercial or something and I'd get a place in Malibu and my brother and sister could come live with me. This was my plan. Yeah. I was, I was gonna be a 7-year-old head of households and

Rex: yeah, with a three and a 2-year-old, uh, helping out

Sabra: and I mean, if my mom and I were getting along at the time, I might invite her like, yeah.

Um, so I set off riding West and, you know, I knew the direction because that's where the sunset. And so my horse and I were riding and uh, and then we hit our first highway. And I had never tried to ride my horse on a highway or across a highway. And so the first like giant semi-truck that roared past, he reared up and just pivoted and ran the other direction, just galloping.

And I held on tight and thought I was gonna fall off, thought I was gonna die, but I managed to hold on. And I just kept telling him, it's okay, it's okay. Please slow down. And pulling on the rings, turn around. Yeah. And um, and I managed not to fall off because after all, I, I was a rodeo princess [00:05:00] and, and a barrel racer.

And I, I didn't fall off. Um, and then I was like, you know, we have to, to try again. So I, I turned him back around and I could just feel his body tensing as we got closer and closer to the freeway again. And, and then the minute that he set his hoof on the pavement, he

reared up and, and galloped the other direction again.

When I finally got him to slow down again, I, I was just like,

well, I, I can't, I can't go back home because he was just so violent. And, um, and I mean, as a kid, I, I thought, I honestly did think it was normal. Um, but it was still, I still didn't wanna go back to it because, you know, as a kid, the family that you grew up and is kind of like the first culture, the first subculture that you grew up in.

Oh yeah. So you think that that's normal? Yeah. And I, you know, I thought that when other kids went on vacation, you know, they were also like being forced to stay with men in hotels [00:06:00] for a week at a time. Like I, when they would say, oh, I went to Disneyland. I'd be like, oh, I did too. And, and then I just assumed that that also meant that their dads had left them alone in a hotel room with men.

You know, I was like, I thought that's what going to Disneyland meant for everyone. Worldwide data shows that most child trafficking victims, their first trafficker is a family member. It fits this really the same statistics and profiles as child molestation. You know, usually the first abuser is your own parent or family member or family friend who has groomed the entire family.

Children are vulnerable in a unique way because, you know, you're hardwired to trust your caregivers, to trust your parents or whatever. Adults are, you know, tasked with and appointed to care for you. They are

Rex: your protectors.

Sabra: Yeah. And so if they tell you like, this is the way things are, this is normal, you are hardwired biologically to trust that.

And then compounding that is the fact that [00:07:00] children do not have. Legal rights of their own. You as, as a kid, um, even, you know, a 17-year-old, you only have as many legal rights as the adults around you are willing to bestow and, and protect for you. And so if you're surrounded by abusive exploitative adults, you essentially don't have legal rights.

And then in addition to that, you know, just kids in general, like, you know, especially as, as an editor who wants to, um, amplify and platform youth voices and perspectives on, on issues. A frustration that I hear from young writers as young as like eight years old or middle school or high schoolers, they all, they all share with me.

Like when I tell, when I tell a politician something, when I write to the state legislature or write to the mayor or the governor or our congressional representatives, they, they don't, they don't take me seriously. They're condescending the majority of the time because I, I am not a constituent who's old [00:08:00] enough to vote.

Rex: Saber's father tightly controlled the household. He was physically and mentally abusing his wife and the children. They were in a constant state of fear of him and the ties he had to the mob. When Saber was 10, her mother fled with the children for a good deal. Of that time, the family was homeless on the run and hiding out from Saber's father

Sabra: when I was 10 is when we finally ran away from my dad as a family, like my mom and my, my brother and sister and I, and we were homeless all over the west coast, in California, in Utah.

Living in the Virgin River Valley in Utah was just so magical. In the mornings when the sunrise would creep down into the canyon, you could see the mountain goats perched on these rocks against the sunrise. And, and then when we also, when we lived in, um, in the redwoods like Humboldt County, I, I loved it there so [00:09:00] much.

It, it was like living in a cathedral.

Rex: Did you, as a child understand homelessness as, as, you know, the issue that it is, or, or as a family unit without your dad? Were you, was your mom making it work so that it was not, I think maybe the word I'm looking for is traumatic. It, it was actually. Okay.

Sabra: Um, is that,

Rex: is that a fair

Sabra: It was, it was better than, it was better than the fear of not knowing when my dad was going to come home.

And he was always really physically violent whenever he would get home. And he, he was a, a. A construction contractor. So he would be gone for months and then would randomly show up and just be incredibly violent. So, so to answer your question, it was a relief to be away from him. And, but we were essentially on the run from him, so we had to keep moving so that he wouldn't find us and, and try to kill us as he had threatened.

Um, and my mom didn't make the best of it. I mean, she had her moments as a good parent. Like, [00:10:00] um, she, she really wanted us all to have our own rooms, but we were homeless. And so, um, so the tent, we had had these canvas, uh, separations. So we each had an our own quote unquote room, but it was just a piece of canvas in between your own little corner.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and you could hear, you could hear, I could hear my brother snoring next to me, but there was a canvas piece making my, in my own room, you know. But, um, yeah, so she had. She had kind of a, a sense of she would try to create kind of a sense of magic to it.

Rex: While on the run, Saber's mother eventually brought the family to Port Angeles, Washington.

Why did she come to Port Angeles?

Sabra: My grandfather retired there and had a stroke soon after, and so we went there ostensibly to help take care of my grandfather and yeah. And then shortly after that, my mom kicked me out for being gay. My brother, I, I don't blame him for this at all. 'cause he was, you know, just a kid and all of his friends had like, teased him at school and told [00:11:00] him that I was gay.

So he, so he ran home and, and announced, you know, he thought he, he thought he was like the person with the big news. And, you know, as a journalist, I totally get that. Like, I want, I want here he, here, he yy. Yeah. No, my sister's gay.

Rex: Read all about it.

Sabra: Yeah. But, um, yeah, so, uh, so I don't blame him at all, but he, he ran into the house and announced, um, that I was gay and my mom flipped out.

And I think at the time she was, I mean, she was struggling with addiction. She would like sometimes not come out of her room for like a week. And so I would, I would be the one like. Caring for my brother and sister cooking, making sure that they got to school on time. And so, yeah, she, that got her to come out of her room though, and she kicked me out and said she didn't want me, or my bad, my bad influence in her house or around her children calling my siblings.

Her children was like, well, I'm the one who, who like parents them, but okay, whatever you say. But anyway, she was like just screaming at me and the neighbors were, I was worried that the neighbors were [00:12:00] like watching and I was embarrassed and so I just left and I didn't wanna be late to school the next day.

Um, you know, ever, ever the nerd and like rule follower, I didn't wanna be late to, to class. So I, I went, um, back to school and slept on the roof of the high school theater. It was kind of like a feral teenage gargoyle. And, and then in the morning the bell would ring and that was like my alarm clock essentially.

And I, I just had to be really careful climbing down, you know? And, uh, because I didn't want the cheerleaders to see me because they, or the, the other, the rest of the soccer team. 'cause they would've like, bullied me even more. And, and yeah. And that worked for a while and then it started to get too cold and so I moved into a hippie commune.

And I lived in the goat stable of the hippie commune.

Rex: Were you still going to school?

Sabra: I was, yeah. Um, and I was also working several jobs. I was working as a landscaper. Um, I was also working on a couple of farms. Um, I, [00:13:00] and I was also working as a barista.

Rex: Saber continued with her schooling and tried to fit in at the hippie commune as best as she could.

Sabra: There were a few hippies who would ask the older hippies, like, you know, newcomers to the commune, like, is she a narc? Like she doesn't wanna do drugs. I offered her mescaline and she said, no, I offered her this dank organic weed. And she said, no, thank you. What is wrong with her? Right. And the older hippies would say, no, no, she's, she's not a narc.

She's just boring. And I, I mean, the truth was that I, I'd seen, I had, you know, had an intimate up close and personal experience with my mom's addictions and I was just too afraid to drink or even use, you know, cannabis or anything. And so, um. So I just, you know, I just didn't do any of that. So they, they were really su, some of them were really suspicious of me for a while.

Rex: Sabra was just 14 alone in the world, living in a commune. While it had been difficult to fit in, [00:14:00] there was a couple who showed her kindness and looked after her. One evening they propositioned her for sex. She left the commune and was once again homeless, not having a place to go. She remembered a small cave she had discovered while hiking near the Elah River.

Sabra: That's the point at which I moved into a cave above the Elah River, and this was before the dam was removed. So there was like, um, you could walk across the dam to the other side, and I don't even know if it exists now since it probably doesn't, since the dam has been removed. But there was this kind of ledge on the cliff side and uh, this shallow cave.

So it wasn't like a deep layer or anything. It was just like this shallow cave that kept me out of the wind and the rain. Um, and it was still cold, but I had, you know, I had my sleeping bag and a bivy sack and, and it was really nice.

I had this fantasy of going to college.

I just had [00:15:00] this really romantic notion of like Oxford or Cambridge or I also really wanted to go to the University of Chicago 'cause the campus is so pretty.

Um, so yeah, I just, there, there were like all of these schools that I wanted to go to. And so I was trying to figure out how to make that happen, how to pay for that. And I was going to the library and researching scholarships and stuff. And I found what I thought was the perfect scholarship. Like it was for a lot of money and it

was for the Ayn Rand Institute.

And I didn't know who Ayn Rand was. I had

never heard of her or read her work. But the instructions on the, um, on the scholarship were read every Ayn Rand book and write an essay about your truest calling in life.

And I had, I had a typewriter in my cave. It was like this robins egg blue typewriter. And I, I said, I read every [00:16:00] eand book in like a month. And I sat down to my typewriter. Dear Eand

Institute, my truest colleague in life is altruism.

Yeah, I did not get the scholarship.

Um, I know now that, you know, homeless teenage girls living in caves are not the target demographic of the Ein Rand Institute scholarships. Uh, so yeah, I didn't get that.

Rex: Saru was struggling. She was living in the woods with no plans on how to move forward, questioning her future.

One morning she had an encounter with a deer.

Sabra: I woke up to this deer, like kind of snorting and eating grass near me, and I just woke up and was like, and was looking at this deer. And I, I just remember like, maybe this is a very autistic coded thing of me to say, but I remember thinking like, I don't wanna be a human.

Like all the, like, pretty much all the humans I've known up to that point are just [00:17:00] awful and cruel. And I wish I could be a deer and or some other animal. And I remember thinking, you know, I was born in this body as a human, and so I need to just embrace that. And um, and then it also, I also just started thinking about, well, you know, I could live, I could live in the woods forever.

Like, you know, I was good at foraging. I was good at like building shelter and like surviving out there. But I, I started to think, well, if I do this for the rest of my life and I like, you know, live like hidden in like the whole rainforest or something forever, by the time I am, you know, 40, 50, 60 years old, like, if I break my ankle like that, I'm, I'm not gonna have access to Advil or whatever.

Rex: Practicality. Yeah.

Sabra: Yeah. And I, so I just started to kind of like, kind of play out what that would look like if I was, you know, just feral in the woods for the rest of my life. And I realized like, that's, that doesn't sound so nice once I'm older [00:18:00] and, and not able to, to get around as easily and forage and everything as easily.

So I was like, well I was born in this human body, so I'm gonna try to embrace that and I'm gonna try to join society and, you know, assimilate into society again. Society just felt so foreign to me. And, and also, you know, with the parents that I had, I was like, well, if society was my parent, what would, what would society say?

I'll probably go to college. And uh, and so I was like, okay, well, so anyway, that's kind of, that's kind of what spurred me to just kind of have a goal beyond just living in the woods and like go to college. And eventually I ended up in Seattle

Rex: at 17 years old. Saber made her way to Seattle.

Sabra: You know, when I first got to Seattle, I remember, um, I think it was the Westlake, I think it was the Westlake, you know, transit tunnel.

And I had not encountered an escalator in years. You know, there are, I don't think there are any escalators in Port Angeles, or maybe there are now, but there, there I [00:19:00] was, I was so terrified of the escalator. Like I just was, I, I just was such a, like yeah. I mean, I keep saying the word feral. Yeah. But yeah.

Um, so I brief,

Rex: you were, you were a raccoon at the bottom of the staircase, the stairs. Yeah, exactly. These moving stairs. Yes. Wondering what's going on.

Sabra: Yeah. So I eventually braved the stair or the, um, the escalator and I slept in, you know, I, I just needed to be somewhere dry and, and warmish, so I was sleeping in the Westlake.

Uh, transit tunnel. And this, um, this guy came up to me and, you know, tapped my shoulder while I was sleeping. And, and he pointed at like a, a cop that was walking toward us and he said, you know, you're about to be arrested. Like you should, you should come with me so you don't get arrested, um, or, or anything for sleeping in here.

And so I, you know, I hopped up and followed him and then the cop didn't follow us and we went out of, we went out of the transit tunnel and, um, and he asked if I'd eaten and I, I hadn't eaten in like a few [00:20:00] days. And so I, um, he took me to the mc, the, the McDonald's on pine and. Yeah. And he bought me a Happy Meal and like, and um, yeah, and it was back when they still had the indoor dining, which they don't have anymore.

And, uh, and then, um, and he was actually a real change vendor. And so that is kind of part of how I'm, how it's such a great full circle moment to be in this position as the interim editor in chief. That's

Rex: beautiful. Yeah. He was a real change vendor. I, I can't hardly believe it's, it's like in those moments you think God, the universe mm-hmm.

Is, is working his magic. Yeah.

Sabra: I wish that I knew his name. I, I don't remember his name. I, I vaguely remember what he looked like. I know he was staying at the Mission

Rex: Saber, remained homeless in Seattle for a while. She slept outside, near where the Real Change Office is located and spent the majority of her days in bookstores and libraries.

[00:21:00] The university libraries allowed her to blend in as a student a privilege being the age that she was. Through hard work and lots of help from others. Sabra managed to get into and graduate from Portland State University. Throughout that time, she worked in hospital administration. Along the way. She got married and then divorced.

Due to the domestic violence of her wife escaping that relationship, she once again became homeless in Seattle. However, things were about to turn around for Sabra. She started working as a freelance investigative journalist and food writer. Her articles were published in major national newspapers such as The New York Times and The Washington Post and the magazine vo.

She edited a few books, lived in Taiwan, Paris, and London, and all of that journey led her to take advantage of an opportunity at Real Change to be an interim editor in chief. I'm [00:22:00] thrilled to report that between our recording sessions over the last several weeks. Sabra is no longer the interim editor in chief, but actually the official editor in chief at Real Change.

I asked Sabra to tell me more about Real Change.

Sabra: Yeah, so Real Change is a, is Seattle's Premier Street Paper. Um, we are a member of the International Network of Street Papers and we still use a business model from a hundred years ago with street vendors selling the paper. Uh, we are an independent nonprofit news outlet.

And then the other side of what we do is, um, providing very low barrier jobs to peop mostly to people who are unhoused or unstably housed or formerly, you know, experiencing homelessness. And um, you know, 'cause a lot of times if you're currently homeless for whatever reason, it can be very difficult to get a job.

And, um, we just have like one of the [00:23:00] lowest barrier options. Um, it also allows people to. Basically be an entrepreneur and hone their sales skills. You know, a lot of vendors, once they do get a job, they still sell the paper as, you know, additional income

Rex: and low barrier for people that might not know what that means.

What it in a sense is that somebody that wants a job can walk into real change and get a job.

Sabra: Exactly.

Rex: And, and, and the things that would keep them from getting a job are, or is it super low barrier where there's. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah,

Sabra: no, it's so, it's so many things. I mean, sometimes the barrier to getting a job when you're homeless is that you are exhausted because it's not safe to sleep at night, and so you just have just this, you know, constant struggle with insomnia because it's literally unsafe to sleep at night when you're living outside.

You know, selling the papers at real change might be an option, may might be a better option because you can build your own schedule. You don't have, [00:24:00] you could just have to come pick up the papers when the vendor center is open, but otherwise you, you get to decide your own schedule. Other barriers could be that you maybe have a criminal record, and as we know in this country.

Our, our legal system, you know, is very racist and, and many people have criminal records that should not have them. Um, and so, but a, a simple background check that an employer, a prospective employer might do, isn't going to dig into, well, were you fairly charged? Was your case fairly represented? Um, was there, was the judge racist?

You know, that sort of thing. They're just

Rex: gonna bounce you.

Sabra: Yeah. They're just gonna, they're just gonna move on to the next candidate. And so, you know, that's, um, another example of low barrier.

Rex: Yeah. Bottom line is somebody that's homeless in the city of Seattle

Sabra: mm-hmm.

Rex: And wants a job can come to real change.

Sabra: Yeah. I, and,

Rex: and pretty darn sure can get a job.

Sabra: Yeah.

Rex: Tell us about your job. What do you, what do you do, what do you typically write about? I'm guessing [00:25:00] most people know what an editor does, but tell us what you do and, and then you're a writer. What do you, what do you focus on typically at real change?

Sabra: Yeah. Um, that's a good question. Every day is a little bit different. The, we, it's a weekly paper, so the kind of the schedule for getting the paper out the door on Wednesdays, 'cause we print, we print Wednesday morning. Um, so Mondays and Tuesdays are our busiest day. Those are the days when we are finalizing, we're finalizing drafts, we're fact checking, we are getting the proofs ready for the copy editors.

We have an amazing team of copy editors who are all volunteers and we are so grateful for them every week. Yeah. So we get, we get the proofs to the copy editors on Monday, Tuesday. We finalize everything and send it to the printers by Tuesday evening. And then the paper's printed on Wednesday. Wednesday through Friday, I spend in meetings, um, doing interviews and reporting and editing and it, it's so many [00:26:00] things.

And then in addition to that, you know, it's really important to me, like, as someone with lived experience of homelessness in Seattle, it's so important to me that the newsroom is not separated from the vendors and from the, like, unhoused community. So a lot of my time is also spent like chatting with vendors, doing writing workshops with them and other people in the community.

It's really important to me to amplify the voices of people who are usually not listened to. There. There are few phrases that I detest more than give voice to the voiceless. I, no one has ever been voiceless, I would say. I mean, even if you don't have the ability to speak, you're not voiceless. I, I see my job very much as amplifying.

People who very much already have their voice, but helping to like build that platform and amplify that.

Rex: And so when you write for real change, tell me what you write about and what motivates [00:27:00] you.

Sabra: Yeah. Um, well, I, I like to say that my beat as a journalist is exploitation in all its forms, whether that's our carceral system and prison labor, or human trafficking, or financial abuse and identity theft, exploitation of natural resources in our food.

Supply chain, just exploitation in all its forms, just has, I've always really gravitated toward that. Um, but I also, you know, especially with everything that's happening in the world right now, I don't want it all to be, you know, depressing news. There are, there is some good news, believe it or not, in the world these days.

Still,

Rex: I'd like you to give us your, your definition of exploitation, because I think we all in general know what, what that is, but I want to hear it from you, what, what that means to you.

Sabra: Yeah. Well, as you know, a survivor with lived experience of human trafficking, you [00:28:00] know, child trafficking, both sex and labor trafficking and also homelessness, I really define exploitation as preying upon vulnerability.

There are always going to be people who are opportunistic for whatever reason, whether that's just because they're, they're wired that way to be awful. Uh, for whatever reason or out of desperation themselves, um, you know, because there are some traffickers who end up doing that out of economic desperation themselves.

I, I always say that human trafficking is, you know, a, a crime that centers on preying upon vulnerability. Um, and that vulnerability can look like so many different things. It can, you know, look like domestic violence and just your sense of autonomy and worth being eroded down to the point that psychologically you what would normally be a red flag that you would say no to.

You just don't have the wherewithal to assess that [00:29:00] or say no, or, you know, and homelessness is one of the biggest risk factors for trafficking victims because. Yeah, what you would, what you would normally say no to if you're stably housed, stably employed, um, you don't have just a bunch of violent crises happening all the time.

Um, yeah. The things you would normally say no to, you're less likely to, in your, that mind gets blurred. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rex: And you've written about exploitation, not just in those kind of obvious, uh, homelessness, uh, trafficking, but, but in other topics, like, like food. And can you, can you, can you run through a little bit of some of the other, other, uh, areas that we wouldn't necessarily think about exploitation in?

Sabra: Yeah. Well, I, I think especially with what ICE is doing, um, you know, and just the, I, I'm at a loss for words to, you know, succinctly describe what's [00:30:00] happening, but the. The predation on immigrant communities, the institutionalized predation that ICE is deploying in the federal government is deploying has, you know, it's especially highlighted things like the H one B visa.

Um, so in terms of, in terms of agriculture and our food supply chain, the H one B visa is a, is a very easily exploited type of visa that a lot of agriculture workers have in the last decade. Like, well, yeah, in recent years come into the us, um, to work with. But it's, it's very easy to exploit that visa, um, for a bunch of reasons I could go into.

And then also regarding agriculture and our food supply chain, um, the 13th Amendment has a loophole, the 13th amendment that was supposed to, um, you know, outlaw slavery in the us. It has a loophole in it that allows, um, for. Prison labor to [00:31:00] basically be, um, basically be the, the modern version of slave labor in our prison system.

And, uh, because it says, if, if you're convicted of a crime, if you are a criminal, you, you don't have the right to not be enslaved in the US essentially. Um, and there's been a lot of efforts, um, including, you know, a great documentary by Ava DuVernay, I think it's called The 13th, um, about why we need to close that loophole in the 13th Amendment.

Um, you know, my little sister who is also a survivor of homelessness and trafficking and domestic violence, um, you know, she, she was in prison and, and so I, I just find, and, and, and she's one of, one of many people who are trafficking victims who are then imprisoned for various reasons, oftentimes because they have defended themselves against their trafficker or another abuser.

Uh, then the irony of it is that when they're in prison, they are, um, [00:32:00] you know, pushed into forced labor by our government

Rex: in a sense. Trafficked again, right? Yeah. Like, it just, it just keeps rolling for them.

Sabra: Yeah. But quote unquote, legally trafficked by the government.

Rex: Yeah. I think I've, I think I saw somewhere climate change, tech, um, healthcare, these are all places where, where in our society we have, we see.

Exploitation.

Sabra: Yeah. So I can just kind of run down just like with a couple of tangible examples. So with climate change, uh, an example in the US is the LA fires. There's been a lot of reports since the LA fires of people. Being homeless because they lost their jobs or they lost their home because they've become homeless.

They are more desperate and willing to just kind of say yes to whatever's offered to them. Well, and, and, and, you know, people who have worked as like personal chefs or gardeners for wealthy people in LA who lost their home, they then therefore lost lose their [00:33:00] jobs because the, the landscaping job that they had is gone, is gone.

It, it, you know, was burned up literally. Um, I know someone who, um, was really desperate for a job and was offered a job nannying and ended up like not being allowed to leave the house and was basically imprisoned, um, on under what was un originally the auspices of a, a nannying job. One of the things that made her especially vulnerable was that she's a, um, a former foster youth.

I know that you've interviewed. People who are survivors of the foster care system. And it just, it creates its own kind of trauma. And, um, there's a lot more to her story, um, including that she was abused by someone who was a police officer. So she also couldn't go to, she didn't feel safe going to the police for help because the, one of the reasons she was in that situation was because of police.

Rex: You know, listening to you talk it, like, it's hard not to wanna think, [00:34:00] uh, why, why do we have this? Like, is it human nature? I mean, I know that's a big question, but it feels like in every situation you have someone that's gonna be more vulnerable than another person.

Sabra: Mm-hmm.

Rex: And so many times around the world, in all sectors, we have one human taking advantage of a more vulnerable one.

Is it built into us? Where, what's going on?

Sabra: I, I wanna be more optimistic than that. I. I

Rex: You think it's systems that

Sabra: it, it, it definitely force it. Yeah. But I mean, we also build those systems that reinforce it, right? So it's like there's the individual, like one trafficker, one victim, um, dynamic that can exist.

And then there's also, you know, like capitalism, you know, and like, um, can, can, can exploitation be eradicated in a system of capitalism? Yeah. I don't know where dog

eat dog. Well, yeah, because you always

have to have, you also always have to have someone on the bottom. Yeah. There [00:35:00] always has to be that market competition.

Yeah. In capitalism. So, and people, like real people have built those systems, but I, I think the cognitive dissonance is a lot easier for someone if they're a politician passing a bad policy or a banker, um, who, or you know, who's not, who's like building these systems that are going to, you know, create a hierarchy.

But ultimately I think it's about economic disparity. I mean, there's, there's so much data that shows that we are living in a time right now of some of the worst economic disparity gaps ever. Um, it's arguably worse than during Hoovervilles and also with, you know, with what's happening with ice deporting so many people without, just, without due process.

I don't wanna be a fearmongering, whatever, but our food supply chain very much relies on, on migrant labor. Yeah. It, anyway, we, we have, we just have [00:36:00] like a very extreme, um, economic disparity model right now, and Seattle is a microcosm of that. Um, I think that, you know, Seattle in the nineties was very different before the tuck boom.

Um, and I mean, you, you really see it now like. It's, it's very difficult to have a comfortable life in this city if you make less than a hundred thousand dollars a year. You know, if you're working at a restaurant, like, I, you know, we talked a little bit about exploitation in the, in the food industry, but in the restaurant industry specifically, most of the busers and a lot of the, um, you know, friend of house staff and line cooks and stuff that I've interviewed for, for stories, especially in South Lake Union.

So they work in, like, they work in the restaurants where Amazon executives who make half a million dollars a year or more, where, where they go eat lunch and the buser, the dishwasher, the line cook, the, um, you know, the server at the table. A lot of times they have [00:37:00] to, they have to take public transit to South Lake Union from Renton, and that can be two hours both ways.

That can be a four hour commute to make minimum wage. You know, another aspect of it's not sustainable. No. And another aspect of exploitation is. The, there's also the, the loopholes where if someone is disabled and you know, for example, goodwill, there, a lot has been written about like goodwill, hiring people for subminimum wage, and they can do that because maybe this person, um, has a disability.

And so because of our federal minimum wage laws, they're allowed to pay that person less than minimum wage.

Rex: I did not know that.

Sabra: So there's exploitation all around us all the time. And it's, and it's not just one person, you know, it's not just like Yeah. One abusive person and a, and a so-called victim.

It's, it's in the system, it's in the water. It's like describing water to a fish. Yeah. You know, we're, we're swimming in it.

Rex: Tell us how your life has informed, [00:38:00] um, for instance, writing about homelessness and, and trafficking, both of which you've experienced.

Sabra: Yeah, I think that. More than anything, it's given me a humility to know that I only have one perspective of homelessness and trafficking.

You know, my own lived experience of it is one, one sliver of that. And so I try to bring a humility to it, that there are perspectives of it and experiences of trafficking and homelessness that I don't know personally, but I wanna bring humility to the conversation. And, and, and something that I always say when I teach writing classes, especially journalism classes, is you don't wanna know what the ending of the story is when you start out.

Like, I mean, you can have an idea of where the story's going, but let it surprise you. Like let it just see where it takes you and have the, have the humility and grace to, to flow with that. It's, it's kind of similar to like the [00:39:00] scientific method where you have a hypothesis, but you don't want to, you don't wanna set out to prove your hypothesis.

Right.

Rex: Let the science prove it.

Sabra: Yeah. And, but I, but I do think that there's a lot to be said for having, you know, having lived experience and, and being able to understand intrinsically, like how asking a certain question or phrasing it a certain way can, can be really triggering to someone. 'cause I'm always, I, I always am really cognizant of like, I know that I need to ask this person this question, whether it's for fact checking or, or something else.

But I, I sometimes phrase it as, you don't have to answer this if you don't want to, but I, I wanted, you know, I needed to ask this because of this and phrasing it that way so that it's like more of a partnership in, in developing and, and learning the story. As a journalist, there have been so many, so many articles, so many stories that I have pitched to editors and I have literally been told.

You can't write this because you're inherently biased. [00:40:00] And they, and they say that because they think that because I've experienced trafficking and I wanna report on this story about traffic, about a form of trafficking and exploitation that I didn't personally experience, but I have, I have like sources and knowledge of the background that a journalist who, who's, you know, never experienced that wouldn't come in knowing.

Like, I always argue, like I have a nuanced perspective of this, and I'm very familiar with the background of the story and everything at play, and I've had so many editors at the New York Times, the Washington Post, um, the, I probably shouldn't name the other ones. That's actually

Rex: really shocking to me.

It's, it's like saying, I'm sorry, you're biased. You're, you're. Harvard education is, is biasing you on this.

Sabra: Oh, they never say that though. They never say that. Right.

Rex: But they're both forms of, uh, gaining knowledge. Mm-hmm. And information. Right. Well, it's really kind of, uh, surprising to me.

Sabra: It, it's a, it's an [00:41:00] antiquated definition of what objectivity is in journalism, or that being unbiased is the lens of, uh, you know, a cisgender, heterosexual white man and.

Um, and you also see this in other, in other ways too. You know, there have been trans reporters who've been told you can't report on trans stories because you're inherently biased, even if it's like a trans mask person reporting something about like a, something that happened to a trans femme person. Um, and, and it's like saying, well, as a human I can't report on stories about other humans.

I need to let a robot do that. You know?

Rex: Yeah. I think it's really interesting what you just shared about what is an unbiased human.

Sabra: Exactly. We all bring, we all bring ourselves to reporting to storytelling, whether you're a journalist or a poet or whatever. You bring yourself, and that's what makes it compelling.

Like when I, I usually, not all the time, but I usually can tell when something's been written by AI and it just feels soulless. Mm-hmm. [00:42:00] Because it's not, it's not bringing a human perspective to it and a, and a humanity, um. And another example of of this is during the Black Lives Matter protests, there were black reporters, um, I think one of them was in Pennsylvania, one was in, um, I wanna say Wisconsin.

There are, there are actually like documented instances of black reporters being told you can't report on the BLM protests because you are black. Right? Yeah. Just, just so listeners know, Rex has just this shocked, like, disgusted look. Well,

Rex: I just, I just, I've nev one, I've never heard this before, so it's really interesting to, to, to hear that.

And also, it's baffling, right? Mm-hmm. Like, it, it seems, um, it's like telling a fisherman you can't. Explain what phishing is about.

Sabra: Right. Right. You know? Yeah. That, no, that's a great analogy. Yeah. And I will, I mean, I will say that sometimes there are stories I'm reporting on where I have like [00:43:00] personal lived experience that somehow coincides with it or intersects with it, and, and it does make reporting on it more triggering, but that's part of being human.

Mm-hmm. You know, and I, and I have a good therapist and I work through it, and it's okay. And yeah, everyone, everyone does have bias. Everyone is human. And so sometimes I'll, you know, I do need to disclose that I might have a conflict of interest or, you know, this is like, I will sometimes at the top, like in the first paragraph, explain my own experience with a story or something.

Rex: Mm-hmm. Yeah. But

Sabra: I think as long as you disclose that,

Rex: yeah. I think if you're doing your job, you know where you are, where you are, uh, producing journalism. Right. Yeah.

Sabra: With transparency and honesty. Yeah.

Rex: Yeah. Where do you, where do you see the biggest. Pushback. Like how, like what is the barrier when you are, when you are working to expose and, and educate and activate, uh, society around the issue of [00:44:00] exploitation?

Where do you see the biggest pushback? Like what is the, the hump to get over, in other words?

Sabra: Yeah. M many of our systems that create an ecosystem where exploitation thrives, the very people in power who have created those circumstances and profit, literally profit from them, also claim to want to be the philanthropist to solve the problem that they created in the first place.

Uh, is it Audrey Lorde who said the quote about, uh, trying to dismantle the master's house with the Master's tools?

Rex: The point is that it makes it doubly difficult when you're, you're trying to address something that wa with somebody that actually created the problem. Mm-hmm. Or as part of the problem.

Sabra: Mm-hmm.

Rex: Yeah.

Sabra: And so I think that's the tension because I, I was like, without, without naming na names, because I don't wanna be sued, um, I was asked to be a keynote speaker for [00:45:00] a tech, at a tech company conference about human trafficking. And they asked me for an outline. And then, and then originally they didn't wanna draft, they said they didn't wanna draft of my keynote, and then they changed their mind and they censored it to the point that I had to stay up until two in the morning, the night before getting it to a place where they were still going to allow me on stage.

And, and I didn't think, I was, like, I wasn't specifically saying anything about that tech company, but I was, I was criticizing the tech industry, the industry, for trying to solve the very problems in human trafficking that many of them have created in the first place. And, and just this kind of savior mentality.

Without getting too much into this and turning us into a tech podcast, I'll just say that human exploitation is a very human problem, and I think we get, we get kind of enchanted by the idea that everything can be [00:46:00] solved with a new app or a new AI or something. And it's a, it is just a very human problem that might use more technological, technologically advanced tools.

But ultimately we have to address those roots of vulnerability. What are the things that make people vulnerable? It's not whether or not they have an app, it's whether or not they have a place to sleep at night that's safe because there, there have been a lot of apps built to try to like, solve homelessness or, or human trafficking.

Um, and, and some of them are like apps for referrals. But if you don't have, like, housing to refer someone to the app is a waste of money. You know, it's putting the cart before the horse.

Rex: Yeah. And I could also trip into this conversation, and I'll just keep it short by saying, I think the apps are a tool, but at the end of the day, there are a tool to facilitate relationships.

Yeah. And if you don't have relationship Right, you don't have anything. Mm-hmm. I think in fact, if you have housing but don't have a relationship, you [00:47:00] still don't have anything.

Sabra: Mm-hmm.

Rex: You, you know, most of the people that move into housing that don't have relationships, even one. Right. They end up. Uh, often self-harming because of the loneliness and the disconnect.

Mm-hmm. Right. So we, we can't remember, we can't forget that, that solving these issues really are all built on relationships and connection.

Sabra: Yeah. I used to get in arguments online and, and in real life with people about housing first. 'cause you know, housing first is a proven model that works. And, and so many people will say, who don't understand it, will say, well, they need wrap.

They, they need so much more. They need therapy, they need detox, they need whatever. And I'm like, when I say housing first, like I do mean wraparound care. I mean everything that, that you need to support that and more, if I use the word housing first, I don't just mean like throw someone into a studio apartment in a terrible, in a terrible building that's falling apart.

Yeah. That's not what I mean at all. Yeah.

Rex: Yep. [00:48:00] Apps and tools. Or not enough. Yeah. It's, it's the human side of this journey that, that actually addresses ultimately the, each of the issues.

Sabra: Yeah. Well, and, and one other thing I was gonna say about housing first is that like when I was a homeless teenager. Um, one of the requirements for me to qualify for this one housing program was going to therapy, but I was still living outside at the time because the, the youth shelter was full.

And, you know, as we've talked about, it's not safe to sleep at night oftentimes because you, you know, it's dark and you're more likely to be attacked. And so I just had this constant insomnia and literally was unable. To sleep because of safety. And so when I would go to these mandated therapy appointments to get housing to qualify for housing, I would just fall asleep because it was the only place that was safe for me to sleep.

And it was very therapeutic sleep, but it was like useless therapy. Like, so when people are like, oh, they need to basically prove [00:49:00] that they're going to do well in, in an apartment that we give them or something by going to therapy or, or drug treatment meetings or, you know, AA meetings or whatever the, whatever the case may be, I'm like, it's useless if you're just going to sleep there because it's the only place that's safe enough for that, you know?

Yeah.

Rex: Yeah. It's, it, it does require you use the word wraparound. Mm-hmm. Care, right? Like, you know, if you've got a, if you got a bi, if you have a bicycle and you know, built up with many parts, but if, if one of the parts isn't working mm-hmm. You know, the tire's flat or the derailer ISS broken, right. It basically takes the bike outta commission,

Sabra: right?

Yeah. And

Rex: so we, we do, we do need to think about humans as holistic beings that need care on lots of levels, right? Yeah. Housing and, and you know, love and support, attention and food and, you know, clothing. Yeah. All of those things.

Sabra: Yeah. And, and it also reminds me of like, when I moved into my [00:50:00] first apartment after being homeless for, for years.

'cause I, I was, I was homeless for about half of my childhood. When I finally moved into my first apartment. I didn't, I was so scared to like, put anything on the wall and really like, fully move in and, and live in my new home because I was just waiting for the next thing to drop. I was just waiting to be homeless again.

And it took years and years to like, feel stable to, to feel like, oh, I can trust that this isn't gonna be ripped out from under me. Yeah.

Rex: Yeah, this is real.

Sabra: Mm-hmm.

Rex: Earlier I asked what were the barriers to addressing, you know, exploitation and, and you talked a little bit about sometimes the, the very people that are out there trying to do something good are actually involved in setting up what went wrong in the first place, right?

Mm-hmm. But, but also, you know, if you took 10 people just walking down the street in Seattle that don't have that [00:51:00] kind of connection to the larger systemic issues, but are just good human beings, but still not involved, maybe only because of ignorance, not having experienced it in their life, NN not having been able to slip through and not be overly exploited.

You know, I, I I, I wanna ask like, what is, what is the message to them to, you know, with regards to increasing awareness of exploitation and. Potentially moving that towards some sort of action?

Sabra: That's a good question. I, I guess what I would ask is I would ask everyone, consider what are the safety nets that you have in place between you and spending a night on the street?

And some people have a thousands of safety nets between, between the bed that they sleep in each night and sleeping on the street. And those safety nets are very tangible things like, oh, I have 12 family members who could all loan me at least a [00:52:00] hundred dollars. Yeah. Count every single one of those family members.

I would say that that's like the very first safety net to consider because the majority of people experiencing homelessness, not everyone, but the majority don't have family that they could rely on either because there's not generational wealth there for a variety of reasons, especially, especially racism, or they just don't have family.

You know, maybe they have a really, um, cruel family who won't talk to them because they're gay. Or maybe they, maybe they have struggled with addiction and their family has just cut them off. I just really encourage everyone who's listening, like, count your safety nets.

Rex: Yeah. And count your safety nets to what end.

Sabra: Mm-hmm.

Rex: To what end? Like would you, you're asking people to count their safety nets to increase their empathy and sympathy, not some empathy and understanding of people outside or as a vehicle to getting involved to make a difference for those maybe provide safety [00:53:00] nets.

Sabra: Yeah, both. I think I, so in the US.

More, it's being eroded even more so now. But we do not have a good social safety net system. We don't have, like when you, when you tell someone well just stay in a shelter, like most of those shelters are giant open rooms, oftentimes infested with bed bedbugs. You're sleeping next to someone who might be very violent and, and even if you don't know whether they're violent, you're scared to sleep next to a stranger.

And, uh, so yeah, count, count safety nets to understand just for em, I guess for empathy's sake. And to understand the path to homelessness is oftentimes just how many things are there catching you before you have to sleep on the street? Like how many, how many walls are there between the bed you sleep in right now and sleeping on the sidewalk outside your home?

Yeah.

And then, and then in terms of what to do, you know, really. Uh, tangible [00:54:00] action items. There is nothing wrong with giving someone money on the street. I know that $20, to me, I, I would love to just spend $20 on like bubble tea. $20 is gonna mean so much more to someone who's sleeping on the street tonight than to me who just wants to get bubble tea.

You know, that $20 is so much more valuable and going to mean so much more to them the way that they're going to spend it than the way I would spend it. $20 could mean the difference between whether or not they have their dose of insulin. If you give them $20, they can buy food that they know that they can eat.

It gives them autonomy and dignity. It's also an investment because I can guarantee you like the majority of. Homeless people will pay that forward. The moment that they can do something generous for another person, they will not, not everybody, but I would say that the vast majority,

Rex: yeah. I think that's a pretty well known, documented fact that [00:55:00] for whatever reason, people in poverty actually give a higher percentage of what they have.

Mm-hmm. To others. Take a moment to speak about altruism.

Sabra: Oh, I do. I do feel like it is like my trues calling. We're all connected and that includes like generations before and after us. The world that we are living in today is because of, um, greed and a lack of altruism. And when I say the, you know, I mean like the worst parts of it, you know, the, what's happening with ice, what's happening with poverty and homelessness?

That's such a good question. You've kind of stumped me. Well,

Rex: well, that's okay. You know. Um. I find it interesting that altruism would come up in a conversation about exploitation, right? It's almost like it starts to become the good versus bad or good versus evil. You know? I also believe that we all have everything within us, like we do have good, and we do have bad in us, and so we have our [00:56:00] altruistic sides and we have our exploitive sides.

Mm-hmm. Right. I think there, and I think it's, um, life is in some way the management of those two, um, forces within us.

Sabra: Yeah.

Rex: And, and what brings one forward over the other, and you've talked about a little bit in this talk about, um, economic reasons they can, they can get people there. Um, I think trauma, I mean, it's hard to understand exactly what brings that forward.

Sabra: Yeah. And I, I think, I think you can't talk about altruism without talking about selflessness and generosity and. At the same time, you know, there have been, there have been many times when I have been too generous or too selfless, and especially in the way that our, our society in the US especially is structured.

You do have to have a sense of self-preservation to a degree. And so, um, yeah, there have been times when I have like literally given more than I [00:57:00] can afford and it's, and it's ended up hurting me in the end. And then I, I also think that there are a lot of people, especially in Seattle, who I want to put the onus and the blame of homelessness on the people experiencing it without understanding the what led to that.

I always say that there are as many reasons and paths to homelessness as there are people experiencing it. Because every story, as you know, is it is nuanced and different in, you know, in ways. There might be some like trends and through lines and similarities, but you know, there's, there's a, a retired executive from one of Seattle's biggest tech companies that I won't name.

He was recently arguing with me about homelessness and the causes and the solutions and I, I told him, I was like, well, I've, I've exper, you know, I was homeless as a teenager in, in Seattle. And he was like, well, that's different. And I'm like, no, [00:58:00] it's, it's really not. Because yeah, while I didn't, I didn't end up like falling into addiction mostly because I was too scared to even try drugs like that.

I mean, that is a detail of, of like how my life turned out the way that it did. Like, um, you know, my sister, for example, has struggled with addiction and, but we come from the same family. Mm-hmm. There are, there are just a lot of people who want to put the blame of homelessness on individual people. Like, oh, well, you're homeless because you're not trying hard enough, bad choices, you're homeless choices because of your bad choices.

And without, without like considering things like racism, classism, colorism,

Rex: all theisms.

Sabra: Yeah. And, and just the, the extreme disparity, the extreme economic disparity that we have, especially in Seattle. Yeah. I, I, I think a lot of people don't want to acknowledge the privilege that has allowed them to have a really comfortable life and [00:59:00] opportunities.

And I, I want everyone to have, I want everyone to have that comfortable life.

Rex: I love how Sabra ended our talk by sharing, I want everyone to have that comfortable life. We live in a capitalistic society where people are allowed, encouraged, and even revered. For amassing great wealth and power. At a minimum, we should all be afforded the opportunity to have our basic needs met and to live that comfortable life.

I wanna give a heartfelt thank you to Sabra for sharing her personal journey so openly with us and for the work she has dedicated herself to, to shining a light on the exploitation of vulnerability in our society. Please consider supporting real change, whether that is making a donation or regularly purchasing a paper from their street vendors.

You know me now is a project under the nonprofit Facing Homelessness. It is produced, [01:00:00] written, and edited by Tomas Bruski and me, Rex Holbein. Please join the 50,000 plus followers on our very active Facing Homelessness Facebook page where you can join in on the conversation. Thank you for listening to this episode of You Know Me Now..